# Balsams Grand Resort teams up with ski industry legend Les Otten



## bobbutts (Feb 11, 2014)

http://www.unionleader.com/article/20140211/NEWS02/140219854
Just saw the headline, didn't even read it yet.


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## Smellytele (Feb 11, 2014)

I am thinking eb-5


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## ss20 (Feb 11, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> I am thinking eb-5



Otten isn't rich enough to do it himself?  Semi-joking... yeah, this has EB-5 written all over it.

I can see Otten releasing a press release similar to something like this:
"In ten years, we will have tripled the size of BW.  We will add 59,693 new lifts, 99% will not run during the week.  We will classic NE trails into 200-foot wide slopes that are scraped off and windblown by 10am.  We are planning an interconnect with Sunday River, which we hope to complete before the end of the century.  But to do that, we need to abandon ta 1/4 of the main mountain.  We have 14 Grand Summit hotels in the works, (and yes, instead of slopeside, we'll build them ON the slope between the two base lodges!).  We will transform Balsams Wilderness from a nice family mountain to "the new Sunday River" or "the new Killington", but we want more.  So we're making the trails wider, adding a  12-pack chairlift, and performing even less maintenance!  Enjoy "The New Balsams".


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## thetrailboss (Feb 11, 2014)

NO $HIT?  Les Otten returns?!


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## steamboat1 (Feb 11, 2014)

Much better than other recent news I've read about the hotel & mountain.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 11, 2014)

He knows what he is doing.  He is of the opinion that Wall Street was what ruined ASC. I'm not sure I agree with that, but I can understand it to a certain extent.  If he just focuses on this one project and does it right then I think it will be good for the Balsams.  

I never foresaw this ever happening.


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## BenedictGomez (Feb 11, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> * He is of the opinion that Wall Street was what ruined ASC. I'm not sure I agree with that, but I can understand it to a certain extent*.



Wait, what? LOL  Did he actually say that?  That would be the peak of hypocrisy.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 11, 2014)

BenedictGomez said:


> Wait, what? LOL  Did he actually say that?  That would be the peak of hypocrisy.



Yes.  That is the jist of what he said in the Second Edition of Lorentz's "Killington" book.


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## steamboat1 (Feb 11, 2014)

At least I got a bunch of free passes outside the exchange when ASC listed.


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## Bostonian (Feb 12, 2014)

I for one am cautiously optimistic about this.  The Balsams are on my to-do list both skiing and the hotel/resort.  Also, if it does come to fruition and it does reopen, this will be a huge shot in the arm for the Dixville Notch, Colebrook and in general Coos County.  Let's hopefully see it happen!


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## DoublePlanker (Mar 2, 2014)

Planning on 4x the size of the ski area.

http://www.berlindailysun.com/index...g-of-ski-area&catid=103:local-news&Itemid=442

Anybody find any more details about the plans?


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## ss20 (Mar 2, 2014)

This is a fake article, right? :lol:

Quadrupling the size?!  That's ambitious to say the least.  Otten may have made Sunday River the mega-mountain it is now, but could a project like that get done today?  With all the economic and environmental concerns?  Not likely.  

I'd be surprised if he even get's the existing area back open.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 2, 2014)

I think for the ski product to be successful, they probably would need to expand considerably.  It's so far away from the Boston metro area that they'll need more than 100 acres of terrain on 1000 vert to entice people to travel up there.

Unlikely to happen, but I think the thought process is sound.


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## snoseek (Mar 2, 2014)

Just posting to say I spent a six month period up there in summer hiking the surrounding area almost daily. There is potential for bigger Vertical and plenty of quality terrain. That and snow, lots and lots of snow. We'll see how this pans out....Canada is their market more than Boston IMO


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## drjeff (Mar 2, 2014)

snoseek said:


> Just posting to say I spent a six month period up there in summer hiking the surrounding area almost daily. There is potential for bigger Vertical and plenty of quality terrain. That and snow, lots and lots of snow. We'll see how this pans out....Canada is their market more than Boston IMO



Exactly! Their main winter target would be North of the border. I'd bet that for summer ops, they'd still do quite well with the countless families, mine included, who used to go there regularly for family gathering/reunion type events. By my families 3rd reunion trip up there you'd end up recognizing some familiar looking faces of other families up there doing the same type of thing.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 3, 2014)

Quadruple the size ehh? Well no matter what they do, they won't be able to get 2000' of vert out of the mountains there, even if they employ a disjointed vertical method (see Sunday River). The max disjointed vert they can squeeze out is 1640’ from just below the summit of Dixville Peak at ~3410’ (500’ setback from the wind towers at the summit) down to the current base of the ski area at 1770’.

Here is a quick workup of what things COULD look like. There are MANY layout options given the terrain and depending on how much they are willing to spend. I have 10 new lifts here not including a new lift at the existing ski area.





The area below marked “A” is an extension of terrain along the ridge between the current ski area and a cross over lift coming from the Resort hotel (e.g. Overeasy at Stowe). The configuration in here could vary between several trails and lifts to none if the cross over lift goes all the way over to the elbow of the “Connecticut” trail.

The bowl marked “B” would likely be where the vast majority of the expansion would occur. But it does hinge on the 500’ setback from the wind towers being approved. The current 1500’ setback shaves the top 475’ of vertical off the bowl vs just 75’ with a 500’ setback. This area could have a myriad of lift trail configurations. As I have it drawn here, the full vert of the bowl would be from ~3410’ to 1925’ for a 1485’ vert. There is potential to move a bit farther downhill at the bottom of the bowl to squeeze out a 1500’ vert.

The pod marked “C” is a ridge with about 700-740’ of vert. Some of it could be VERY steep. This could really by an expert pod even though the runs would be pretty short.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 4, 2014)

You beat me to it....Les is back at it!

http://www.wcax.com/story/24872426/expanded-ski-area-explored-for-nhs-balsams-resort


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## thetrailboss (Mar 4, 2014)

And love FTN's diagrams.  I think he has a future in the ski biz


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## moguler6 (Mar 4, 2014)

ss20 said:


> This is a fake article, right? :lol:
> 
> Quadrupling the size?!  That's ambitious to say the least.  Otten may have made Sunday River the mega-mountain it is now, but could a project like that get done today?  With all the economic and environmental concerns?  Not likely.
> 
> I'd be surprised if he even get's the existing area back open.



Quadrupling 87 acres probably wouldn't be hard.  Expand the ski area boundary and call everything glades.  Sugarloaf added 650 acres without even adding a lift.


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## steamboat1 (Mar 4, 2014)

I just hope they get the existing area open again. I've enjoyed myself the several times I've skied there.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 4, 2014)

Some more info:

http://nhpr.org/post/huge-new-ski-resort-balsams


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## Edd (Mar 4, 2014)

thetrailboss said:


> Some more info:
> 
> http://nhpr.org/post/huge-new-ski-resort-balsams



Uh, the size of Killington? 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 4, 2014)

Maybe I was more accurate than I thought 


> “They are looking, actually, at quadrupling the size of the present ski area footprint to include overhead gondolas from the Balsams into the new ski area.”


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## thetrailboss (Mar 4, 2014)

Edd said:


> Uh, the size of Killington?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



This is Les Otten you know.  Hyperbole is his thing.  Remember how he defined things a certain way...

While Outer Limits was recognized as the "Longest, steepest, bump run in the east," Otten figured out that if he removed the commas then White Heat was the winner...or something like that.


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## nanjil (Mar 4, 2014)

I remember reading he was trying to get sr back and this is a fall back position. He claimed he has "unfinished" business to do in sr


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## thetrailboss (Mar 4, 2014)

nanjil said:


> I remember reading he was trying to get sr back and this is a fall back position. He claimed he has "unfinished" business to do in sr



He made a run to buy Sugarloaf and Sunday River in 2007 when ASC collapsed but he could not get the money to do it (surprise, surprise).  So he will have to live with having his restaurant overlooking Sunday River (The Phoenix, assuming that he still owns it).  

Sunday River was his baby.


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## xlr8r (Mar 4, 2014)

My ideas.
Purple: Gondola
Red: HS Quad
Blue: Fixed Quad
Green: Triple




Seems like a lot of mellow terrain on these peaks.  Hard to create good continuous vertical


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## thetrailboss (Mar 4, 2014)

xlr8r said:


> Seems like a lot of mellow terrain on these peaks.  Hard to create good continuous vertical



Seems reminiscent of another resort:


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 4, 2014)

xlr8r said:


> Seems like a lot of mellow terrain on these peaks.  Hard to create good continuous vertical



Looks good. Like I said, there are a lot of options. That continuous vertical problem is why I had so many lifts. I was trying to prevent having extremely long/flat run outs at the bottom of each run.


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## nanjil (Mar 5, 2014)

I agree in the sense that I look for fun factor/challenge balance within my limits (of course pushing the limits safely at the same time). Even though sr has less continuous steeps it can be very challenging for me at least because it has all these funny concave, convex surfaces. Throw in patches of ice and it is a $##!  OTH I fin at SL the steeps are steep but flat and more predictable. Anyway no matter the fun factor increases with more natural snow no matter what


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## SIKSKIER (Mar 5, 2014)

Some other views.
http://www.newenglandskihistory.com/skiareaexpansions/NewHampshire/balsamswilderness.php


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## snoseek (May 23, 2014)

http://www.unionleader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20140522/NEWS02/140529540

bump


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## Edd (May 23, 2014)

snoseek said:


> http://www.unionleader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20140522/NEWS02/140529540
> 
> bump



I enjoyed the comments on that one.  Hope like hell it succeeds.  We would go there without a doubt, once they get it operational.


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## deadheadskier (May 24, 2014)

Edd said:


> I enjoyed the comments on that one.



They should hire Alexander Delarge as the Concierge


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## VTKilarney (May 24, 2014)

This is a very interesting quote from the article:

_He added that the new resort would appeal to "Gen Xers" whom he called the economic drivers at resorts for the next 25 years and who enjoyed a variety of activities, including motorized sports such as snowmobiling and riding ATVs.
_

Given the existing trail networks in the area, that makes a lot of sense.


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## thetrailboss (May 24, 2014)

Alexander's concept of entertainment was hilarious. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## Newpylong (May 24, 2014)

:blink:

They're out of their minds. 4 hours from Boston and 7 from NYC and 1,000 vertical. Who is going to finance that?


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## VTKilarney (May 24, 2014)

I think the key is Canada.  Mt. Tremblant is not the most impressive mountain, yet people flock to it.  It's a tough sell, but there are definitely enough Canadians within 2-3 hours to make it work.

I think the key is to make it a resort, and not just a ski hill.  It's got to have other attractions to draw people in.  

From the south, the drive is brutal.  I've always been amazed at just how remote it is from points south.


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## steamboat1 (May 24, 2014)

Newpylong said:


> :blink:
> 
> They're out of their minds. 4 hours from Boston and 7 from NYC and 1,000 vertical. Who is going to finance that?


I've been there several times & I'm from NYC.


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## VTKilarney (May 24, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> I've been there several times & I'm from NYC.



You are the exception.  Just because you have made the trip does not mean that a similar percentage will make that trip as would a shorter trip.  Hopefully their marketing department understands the dangers of using a sample size of one person.


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## AdironRider (May 24, 2014)

Dude the place was one of the premier resorts in the entire country for a long time. There are plenty of people from all over the Northeast that went there religiously. 

That being said, recent history not so much, but it wasnt so long ago that people have completely forgotten about it.


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## steamboat1 (May 24, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> You are the exception.  Just because you have made the trip does not mean that a similar percentage will make that trip as would a shorter trip.  Hopefully their marketing department understands the dangers of using a sample size of one person.



Never been to Burke & if that's the attitude of folks from the NEK probably never will. Much better places even further away. Last time I was up to Stoneham just north of Quebec City there was a group at least a hundred strong from Brooklyn, NY. I guess no one from around here drives that far. Drove right past your little misfit ski hill.


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## steamboat1 (May 24, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I think the key is Canada.  Mt. Tremblant is not the most impressive mountain, yet people flock to it.



I'd bet a large percentage of their business comes from the states. You know people that drive a long way to get there.


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## deadheadskier (May 24, 2014)

AdironRider said:


> Dude the place was one of the premier resorts in the entire country for a long time. There are plenty of people from all over the Northeast that went there religiously.



Even when it was a world class destination, the Balsams almost always lost money.   Its been well documented in numerous publications.  

I hope Les can make his plans happen, but its pretty easy to have doubts about the financial viability of his plans.


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## AdironRider (May 24, 2014)

Wasn't arguing whether they were profitable, just that there was/is a market. 

Wonder how much the culinary school affected their numbers. The times I stayed there they couldnt have been pushing more than 20% occupancy and had a buffet spread fit for kings.


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## VTKilarney (May 24, 2014)

But your argument is centered on an an _unprofitable_ market.  Are people here seriously suggesting that the distance is not a hinderance?   Really?

I'm suggesting to acknowledge this and plan accordingly. I never thought this suggestion would be controversial.  Not in a million years.


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## VTKilarney (May 24, 2014)

AdironRider said:


> Wasn't arguing whether they were profitable, just that there was/is a market.



Nobody said that the market did not exist.  It's just never been sufficient to turn a profit.  That' san important bit of context that cannot be ignored by the new owners.


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## AdironRider (May 24, 2014)

Its in marketing. 

Jackson Hole Wyoming has billionaires pricing out millionaires, and were a couple thousand miles away from anywhere. Distance, when marketed properly, can increase market share.


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## jaytrem (May 24, 2014)

AdironRider said:


> Its in marketing.
> 
> Jackson Hole Wyoming has billionaires pricing out millionaires, and were a couple thousand miles away from anywhere. Distance, when marketed properly, can increase market share.



Bah, Jackson Hole is only popular because "Any Which Way you Can" was filmed there...

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080377/


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## VTKilarney (May 24, 2014)

I also think that Jackson Hole is just a little bit better of a mountain.  Just a little...  It's also got a pretentious village, which is not quite the same as Colebrook.  Trust me on that one.


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## VTKilarney (May 24, 2014)

IMHO, it's doable if they attract the well to do crowd and make it a vacation experience rather than just a ski experience.

They could have packages that include gourmet food, snowmobiling, kids clubs, etc.  An expensive all-inclusive experience.


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## snoseek (May 24, 2014)

The culinary school was mainly there as it was hard to find good mid-grade chefs from the local pool. The program was three and a half years and by the end you better believe the graduates had rock solid skills...then sometimes they stayed for a bit more after. Summer season when I did my time was pretty full except the shoulders, winter likely much harder struggle, then again a larger area might grab some attention, plus all that snomobiling


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## thetrailboss (May 24, 2014)

Newpylong said:


> :blink:
> 
> They're out of their minds. 4 hours from Boston and 7 from NYC and 1,000 vertical. Who is going to finance that?


It's Les Otten. He'll find a few extra vert here and there I'm sure. They do have a lot of work. But 35 years ago folks said the same about this tiny place called Sunday River....



Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## steamboat1 (May 25, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> But your argument is centered on an an _unprofitable_ market.  Are people here seriously suggesting that the distance is not a hinderance?   Really?
> 
> I'm suggesting to acknowledge this and plan accordingly. I never thought this suggestion would be controversial.  Not in a million years.



For the day trip crowd that hangs out on here yes it would be a hinderance. I don't think that's ever been their target market. I can think of a lot of other successful ski areas that don't cater to that crowd either. Some not so big either. Burke doesn't happen to be one of the ones that come to mind. Never seemed to be a success.


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## deadheadskier (May 25, 2014)

steamboat1 said:


> For the day trip crowd that hangs out on here yes it would be a hinderance. I don't think that's ever been their target market. I can think of a lot of other successful ski areas that don't cater to that crowd either. Some not so big either.



Examples?  Preferably 250 or less natural snowfall areas in the middle of nowhere (with no airport), less than 1000 vertical feet and 200 acres of terrain?  

Adironrider brought up Jackson Hole as a successful remote area, but that's like comparing a Peppercorn to a Watermelon.  Jackson Hole is a 4K+ vertical ski area with 2000 acres of some of the best advanced terrain on the planet and get's 400 inches of snow a year.  



steamboat1 said:


> Burke doesn't happen to be one of the ones that come to mind. Never seemed to be a success.



Despite it's prestige, never was the Balsam's according to everything I've read and heard from friends/colleagues in the biz.  For 50 years it was a mostly a money losing hobby for the inventor of latex balloon and gloves.  

Don't take this as me not hoping the place comes back to life.  I absolutely hope it does. I'm just wondering where Otten is going to come up with the $100M to execute his plan and how many decades it's going to take for the investors to receive an ROI.


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## snoseek (May 25, 2014)

Yeah, I've got question whether sinking all that money in for a winter resort is going to work...big gamble if you ask me. 

It would make sense to focus on summer/fall season as that's historically where the action is. Either way if anyone can hype the hell out of 1500ish vert it would be him.


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## VTKilarney (May 25, 2014)

It's as simple as this.  Their traditional market never responded enough for the resort to break even.  If the resort is going to succeed, they need to change things up.


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## drjeff (May 25, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> It's as simple as this.  Their traditional market never responded enough for the resort to break even.  If the resort is going to succeed, they need to change things up.



I was always under the impression that winter operations at the Balsams were more about giving the culinary school some year round "practice" vs. a money making operation, since the reality is given the geographic isolation of The Balsams and the host of other areas that people from large population areas have to drive by to get there that the Balsams won't be a destination resort for the masses anytime soon! 

Can the Balsams THRIVE as an expansion of their existing summer base, a base population that my extended family was in the past a part of? I bet that it could work! This is a concept that we need to think more than just winter operations but year round operations


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## mbedle (May 27, 2014)

Found this on a website with ski area history and expansion. 
http://www.newenglandskihistory.com...wHampshire/balsamswilderness.php#dixvillepeak


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## St. Bear (May 27, 2014)

For the Balsams to thrive, it needs to be a world class resort that happens to have skiing, rather than a destination ski resort with a world class hotel.  To be honest, I think the thing that makes the most financial sense would be a casino.  It keeps getting shot down, and now they're not even looking to put one in the North Country anymore, but I think a high end casino would easily support all the other operations of the resort.


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## drjeff (May 27, 2014)

St. Bear said:


> For the Balsams to thrive, it needs to be a world class resort that happens to have skiing, rather than a destination ski resort with a world class hotel.  To be honest, I think the thing that makes the most financial sense would be a casino.  It keeps getting shot down, and now they're not even looking to put one in the North Country anymore, but I think a high end casino would easily support all the other operations of the resort.



Agree!  It's already got a LEGIT golf course with some incredible views, which can, and has drive business during non ski months.  What it really needs, even though it goes against the model of what it was, was some technology upgrades to reflect modern needs/demands.  As much as it may be a statement of the modern family and it's communication abilities, you've got to have hotel rooms with TV's in them, and wifi is a must.  I think in one sense you need to see what/how Omni Resorts has re-made the Mount Washington Hotel. It still has the grandeur of it's past, but with enough modern ammenities (or maybe even in this day and age necesseties) to attract business conventions as well as "modern" iPad addicted families who once there find out that it's actually quite easy and enjoyable to turn off the electronic devices for a bit and enjoy the incredible White Mountains! And please don't take my last statement as one where I equate the skiing at Brettonwoods with the skiing at the Balsams.  Golf course wise they are pretty darn close in caliber, but skiing wise, BW is in a far greater league that it's neighbor to the North!


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## steamboat1 (May 27, 2014)

The Balsams first opened in 1860 & the hotel expanded to it's present size in 1918. Skiing didn't become a part of the Balsams resort until 1966.


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## VTKilarney (May 27, 2014)

I'd hazard to guess that the rise of the automobile was a huge factor in the resort's troubles.  For as remote as the resort is, there is a train line to Colebrook that must have brought lots of guests back in the day.


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## AdironRider (May 27, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> I also think that Jackson Hole is just a little bit better of a mountain.  Just a little...  It's also got a pretentious village, which is not quite the same as Colebrook.  Trust me on that one.



The mountain only drives about 10% of total valley visitors believe it or not, obviously that's primarily in the winter. Jackson was always an outpost for the wealthy, for a myriad of different reasons, skiing only being a small slice. Most rich folk aren't crushing first trams and hiking Cody Peak. While obviously not on par with Jhole terrain wise, its the whole package. The primary reason JHole is a rich guy place isn't the resort, its a low tax liability state. People park money here, their business associates travel here for meetings (Bernanke and all his boys come out to Jackson every summer - something they used to all do in Northern New Hampshire - Bretton Woods conference anyone?), word gets out. You guys are looking at this as just revolving around the ski area, when in reality that's just an amenity, no more so than phones next to shitters and a decent concierge. Rich guys do like exclusivity, something Northern New Hampshire has much in common with Wyoming.


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## from_the_NEK (May 27, 2014)

30 miles away in Milan, NH there is an airport with a 5000' runway capable of landing small business jets.


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## steamboat1 (Jun 2, 2014)

uphillklimber said:


> I read that they are hoping for a reduction in the setbacks for a wind turbine farm up there from 1300 feet to 500 feet. I live near a wind farm, and I have no visual objections to them, in fact, I smile when I see them turning and producing "free" power. There are two areas of concern however. First is when those turbines start turning on those cold mornings and throw off some ice chunks, it ain't gonna be pretty. Second is the reality abut the noise they produce.  Downwind, they make quite a noise, similar to any household fan, only much louder and penetrating. Basically, it sounds like a train passing by over the hill a short distance away. Only, the train never goes by, it just stays there all day.



Bolton Valley has a wind turbine located pretty close to one of their lifts.


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## from_the_NEK (Jun 2, 2014)

So does Burke (exact same model as Bolton). However both of those are small/medium size turbines that are only 150' tall. The ones one the ridge line above the Balsams are 3-4 times that size and can throw larger chucks of ice further.


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## WWF-VT (Jun 3, 2014)

St. Bear said:


> For the Balsams to thrive, it needs to be a world class resort that happens to have skiing, rather than a destination ski resort with a world class hotel.  To be honest, I think the thing that makes the most financial sense would be a casino.  It keeps getting shot down, and now they're not even looking to put one in the North Country anymore, but I think a high end casino would easily support all the other operations of the resort.



Casinos thrive on busloads of retirees pumping their money into slot machines.  It's ridiculous to think that a "destination casino" in the middle of nowhere NH is going to put the Balsams into the black.


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## drjeff (Jun 3, 2014)

WWF-VT said:


> Casinos thrive on busloads of retirees pumping their money into slot machines.  It's ridiculous to think that a "destination casino" in the middle of nowhere NH is going to put the Balsams into the black.




There was a study done not too long ago that found that within the past year, over 2/3rds of the residents of NH had driven South to either Foxwoods or Mohegan Sun at least on one occasion.(as someone who lives along the Interstate 395 corridor in Eastern CT, based on the number of NH and MA license plates I see traveling on the "casino-expressway" daily, and especially on weekends, I really don't doubt that data!)  I think that there is some demand for a casino in NH for sure.  Would those same people want to drive North to a casino at the Balsams if it was developed???  That's the multi, mutli million dollar question.....

No if NH or MA just don't want any large scale casino development, the general fund in my home state of CT i'm quite sure will gladly keep taking a cut off the slot revenue that is augmented by non CT residents, that the casino's pay to CT every month!


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## deadheadskier (Jun 3, 2014)

I've heard that 2/3rds stat thrown around myself.  I must hang with a different kind of NH resident.  I honestly don't know a single friend or family member that's been to the CT casinos recently if ever at all.

I do know plenty who have gone to Vegas however.


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## Smellytele (Jun 3, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> I've heard that 2/3rds stat thrown around myself.  I must hang with a different kind of NH resident.  I honestly don't know a single friend or family member that's been to the CT casinos recently if ever at all.
> 
> I do know plenty who have gone to Vegas however.



I am also in the 1/3rd. Also none of my friends or family have gone either. Only 2 or 3 have even gone to Vegas.


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## AdironRider (Jun 3, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> I've heard that 2/3rds stat thrown around myself.  I must hang with a different kind of NH resident.  I honestly don't know a single friend or family member that's been to the CT casinos recently if ever at all.
> 
> I do know plenty who have gone to Vegas however.



And 76% of statistics are made up on the spot. There's no way that many individual people from NH do that, but I do suspect the people that do go, go religiously. 

Kind of like when a ski resort claims 100k skier visits, but that wasnt 100k individual people. More like a select group of people going multiple times.


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## DoublePlanker (Jun 3, 2014)

CT casinos are in serious trouble.  Foxwoods is really hurting now.  Its way overbuilt.  Once developed (if developed), Mass casinos will steal those MA and NH customers.  A Mass casino will be closer to majority of NH residents living in southern NH than a casino at the Balsams.

I know a north country casino has been proposed to help with jobs.  It may be viable and a good idea at a new Balsams.  But I would think they want to cater to the high end and be a destination resort instead of a slot parlor for locals.


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## from_the_NEK (Jun 3, 2014)

DoublePlanker said:


> CT casinos are in serious trouble.  Foxwoods is really hurting now.  Its way overbuilt.  Once developed (if developed), Mass casinos will steal those MA and NH customers.  A Mass casino will be closer to majority of NH residents living in southern NH than a casino at the Balsams.
> 
> I know a north country casino has been proposed to help with jobs.  It may be viable and a good idea at a new Balsams.  But I would think they want to cater to the high end and be a destination resort instead of a slot parlor for locals.



I envision a casino ala James Bond movies. Something the very well to do would go to without having to hang around the regular casino riffraff.


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## VTKilarney (Jun 3, 2014)

A small casino may attract Quebecers.  Just filling up on gas and buying alcohol and cigarettes would be enticement.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 3, 2014)

Isn't all this casino talk putting the cart before the horse?  The vote was close, but a legalized gambling bill was just shot down. The second one this year if I do recall.


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## AdironRider (Jun 3, 2014)

I'm with deadhead on this one, casinos are pretty much a last ditch effort, and even then, I suspect they will only be allowed in a few select areas, usually shitty ones. I would see Berlin or Seabrook down south getting a Casino before anything comes close to the notch.


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## VTKilarney (Jun 3, 2014)

The truth is that NH is too late to the game for casinos to be anything substantial.  New Hampshire casinos will be like those sad little casinos you see at some resorts in the tropics.


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## dlague (Jun 3, 2014)

AdironRider said:


> I'm with deadhead on this one, casinos are pretty much a last ditch effort, and even then, I suspect they will only be allowed in a few select areas, usually shitty ones. I would see Berlin or Seabrook down south getting a Casino before anything comes close to the notch.



Or the run down Rockingham Park in Salem, NH. There has been talk about that for years and it is next to one of the largest Malls in NH


i typed with my i thumbs using AlpineZone


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## steamboat1 (Jun 3, 2014)

How's this place just outside Lancaster? 

http://www.mountainviewgrand.com/directions.htm

Not to far from Balsams & other northern NH. ski areas.

Stayed in Lancaster a few times but never at this place.

This is where we stayed.

http://www.cabotinnandsuites.com/


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## deadheadskier (Jun 3, 2014)

Mountain View Grand is a great property.   Very much like the Mount Washington Hotel, only smaller.  Very much like the Balsam's too.

I think it's presence and that of the Mount Washington Hotel is what makes the prospect of the Balsams being successful again somewhat doubtful.  Both the Mountain View and Mount Washington offer that same classic old school hotel in the mountains experience with great dining, spa, golf, etc. and both are MUCH closer to Boston than the Balsams.  2.5 hours vs 4

I've only been to all three on business. I can't comment on the resort experience they all offer as a guest, but all three seem fairly similar.  Every time I try and come up with a reason why someone would drive an hour and half further to stay at the Balsams as opposed to the Mount Washington or the Grand View, I draw a blank.  I don't believe it's possible for the Balsams to recruit the necessary talent to execute an even higher end experience than those two competitors that would make it worth people's while to drive that extra difference.

I think that's why so many people suggest gambling.  That might be the one thing that could differentiate the place from it's competitors which are closer to Boston.


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## VTKilarney (Jun 4, 2014)

Omni taking over the Mount Washington does not help The Balsams.  The Mount Washington hotel was a great place prior to Omni taking over, and Omni has refined the product even more.  

As for the Mountain View Grand, I've always wondered how they stay in business.  It's a great hotel, for sure, but the Mt. Washington is a better hotel.  The Mt. Washington is closer to North Conway, has skiing across the street, is essentially within a National Forest, and has arguably the best view of any resort in New England.  The Mountain View Grand is in a less appealing area, doesn't feel as "grand", and does not have the same views.  They charge less than the Mount Washington, but it's still a premium product.  

The Balsams has a lake/pond - which is something the other two lack.  

Is there room for three grand hotels like there used to be?  The market has already answered that question.  The Balsams is going to have to figure out a new angle.  It's that simple.


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## xwhaler (Jun 4, 2014)

We stayed at the Mt View Grand a few summers ago for a wedding...2 nights. Played some golf there and used their pool, hot tub, sauna. It's nice but honestly does not have the "wow factor" of the Mt Washington Hotel. I'd actually put it a notch below the Wentworth By The Sea which is a grand historic hotel here in my neck of the woods.

Always have been intrigued by the Balsams...do agree they need to differentiate themselves a bit though unsure how many people are going to drive Route 16 or 93 then back roads from major population centers when they can go to CT all highway or even MA at some point.

As far as NH Casinos in general go, I always thought Seabrook would make the most sense. Take over the former dog track, you are right off the highway with seemingly plenty of land to build on for hotels/expansion and drawing folks from MA/NH/ME.


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## VTKilarney (Jun 4, 2014)

That's funny.  I've always wondered why the Wentworth was so popular.  I've enjoyed dining there quite a bit, but staying there has never felt special.  It's surrounded by roads and it isn't truly on the water.


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## EPB (Jun 4, 2014)

deadheadskier said:


> Mountain View Grand is a great property.   Very much like the Mount Washington Hotel, only smaller.  Very much like the Balsam's too.
> 
> I think it's presence and that of the Mount Washington Hotel is what makes the prospect of the Balsams being successful again somewhat doubtful.  Both the Mountain View and Mount Washington offer that same classic old school hotel in the mountains experience with great dining, spa, golf, etc. and both are MUCH closer to Boston than the Balsams.  2.5 hours vs 4
> 
> ...



This might have been brought up before, but to what extent do would one speculate that these guys would go after the Quebec market? Some quick digging on google maps and wikipedia yield the following:

Montreal: 2h 40 away; 3.8MM metro area population as of 2011
Quebec City: 3h 45 away; 766k metro area population as of 2011
Sherbrooke: 1h 30 away; 202k metro area population as of 2011
Trois Rivieres: 3h 2 away; 152k metro area population as of 2011

Going after the MTL market would imply going up against Jay Peak, Tremblant and the Eastern Townships (all closer), for what it's worth.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 4, 2014)

The marina suites at the Wentworth are on the water.  

The popularity of the hotel is due to lack of comparable competition nearby.  There's nothing remotely as nice in the area. It's an easy drive from Boston, so it makes for a quick easy getaway from there for a night or weekend.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 4, 2014)

and FWIW, the owners of the Wentworth briefly entertained buying the Balsams when it initially went up for sale, but deemed it not economically viable.


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## VTKilarney (Jun 4, 2014)

eastern powder baby said:


> This might have been brought up before, but to what extent do would one speculate that these guys would go after the Quebec market?



There is no speculation about it.  They would have to court the Quebec market.  IMHO, the biggest competition is Tremblant.  Jay Peak is, and always will be, a different experience.  Tremblant has a more gentrified presence.  It's the place to "be seen" for well to do Montrealers.  Fortunately for the Balsams, Tremblant is on the other side of Montreal.  Those who live to the east and south may be tempted to go to the Balsams instead.


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## steamboat1 (Jun 4, 2014)

Not for nothing but there is already a slew of Grand Hotels located in & around the Quebec City area.


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## VTKilarney (Jun 4, 2014)

That is definitely true, but for some reason the Eastern Townships is lacking in that department.  You have a couple of fantastic inns (Ripplecove, Manoir Hovey), but not grand hotels in the historical sense.


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## x10003q (Jun 4, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> There is no speculation about it.  They would have to court the Quebec market.  IMHO, the biggest competition is Tremblant.  Jay Peak is, and always will be, a different experience.  Tremblant has a more gentrified presence.  It's the place to "be seen" for well to do Montrealers.  Fortunately for the Balsams, Tremblant is on the other side of Montreal.  Those who live to the east and south may be tempted to go to the Balsams instead.



Lake Placid/Whiteface (2hrs from Montreal) and Gore say hello. You are asking Montrealers to drive past the Eastern Townships, Jay, Burke, Smuggs, Stowe, Sugarbush/MRG and the 2 NYS areas to drive to this place for some little mountain skiing? 

The other reality is northern NH no longer has cache. Bigwigs will continue to get on their jets and go to Jackson Hole or Sun Valley and not even think about NH.

This is similar to what is going on in Tupper Lake, NY.


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## AdironRider (Jun 4, 2014)

Again guys, the ski area is not everything about this resort. Its just one aspect of several. 

Opposed to Whiteface, Gore, Jay, Smuggs, et al where the primary focus is on skiing. 

Key difference.


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## VTKilarney (Jun 4, 2014)

Exactly.  This is about building a resort - not just a ski area.


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## x10003q (Jun 4, 2014)

AdironRider said:


> Again guys, the ski area is not everything about this resort. Its just one aspect of several.
> 
> Opposed to Whiteface, Gore, Jay, Smuggs, et al where the primary focus is on skiing.
> 
> Key difference.



Lake Placid/WF has more visitors during the summer vs the winter. Trying to recapture some magic from the rail era will be mighty difficult in the era of cars.


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## SIKSKIER (Jun 5, 2014)

x10003q said:


> Lake Placid/WF has more visitors during the summer vs the winter. Trying to recapture some magic from the rail era will be mighty difficult in the era of cars.


Same with Cannon/Franconia Notch State park.Totally agree with your last sentance also and apparently so do most investors which is why its still having trouble figuring out whats next.


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## dlague (Jun 9, 2014)

Just got out of a meeting discussing electricity demand for their plans.  I work for the utility that distributes power there.  They have significant snow making plans and they talked about the goal of becoming one of the largest if not the largest ski area in New England.  The catch is the variance they are trying to get regarding the Wind Turbines which they have already applied for.  If they get the variance then they plan on going for it.  It is definitely and longer term plan.  BTW, they plan on laying about 8 miles of snowmaking.

So....  I know this area is not all about the ski area but it is surely front and center.


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## ss20 (Jun 9, 2014)

Alright, joking over.  Otten is crazy if he thinks he can build a SR-type mega-resort in this day and age.  Who's funding this?!?  Jay can't get anything built with EB-5.  No other resorts are doing anything this summer.  Demand is dying, as with every sport besides golf, tennis, and golf cart racing for the baby boomers.  And I'm amazed the environmentalists haven't shot this down yet.  

I don't see this happening.  Nearly impossible.  Call me negative if you want, but you're lying to yourself if you truly think this will fully work out.  

I believe opening the original resort is definitely plausible.


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## Newpylong (Jun 10, 2014)

Out of his mind.


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## dlague (Jun 10, 2014)

ss20 said:


> Alright, joking over.  Otten is crazy if he thinks he can build a SR-type mega-resort in this day and age.  Who's funding this?!?  Jay can't get anything built with EB-5.  No other resorts are doing anything this summer.  Demand is dying, as with every sport besides golf, tennis, and golf cart racing for the baby boomers.  And I'm amazed the environmentalists haven't shot this down yet.
> 
> I don't see this happening.  Nearly impossible.  Call me negative if you want, but you're lying to yourself if you truly think this will fully work out.
> 
> I believe opening the original resort is definitely plausible.



Personally, a lot of approvals will be required to get this project done, but it has a ten year plan.  That area up there is hurting for jobs so I would imagine if this idea actually takes off - the state will be backing it 100%.


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## DoublePlanker (Jun 10, 2014)

We'll see if anybody invests.  It seems like there isn't an ROI there.  I would like to see it come back.  But I am doubtful it can work except for some wealthy investors who don't care about annual losses.


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## AdironRider (Jun 10, 2014)

Wait, where exactly are we getting the largest resort in the Northeast from, the 8 miles of snomaking pipe quote? 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but 8 miles of snowmaking pipe doesnt seem like enough to create the largest resort in the Northeast, unless they are planning on substantial natural product....

I feel like 8 miles would do just one or two pods at Killington, presumably with Skyeship base being one of them.


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## bigbog (Jun 10, 2014)

Smellytele said:


> I am also in the 1/3rd. Also none of my friends or family have gone either. Only 2 or 3 have even gone to Vegas.



Because why does one have to go to Vegas when they have Tupper Lake?


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## Edd (Jun 10, 2014)

AdironRider said:


> Wait, where exactly are we getting the largest resort in the Northeast from, the 8 miles of snomaking pipe quote?



Could be just phase 1, or whatever.  It's pretty easy to be skeptical about this. They need a hook, something nobody else has. And by hook, I mean strippers in the base lodge.


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## AdironRider (Jun 10, 2014)

As long as they are higher quality than the Montreal Super Sexe talent, I dont see how the place could fail.


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## yeggous (Jun 10, 2014)

AdironRider said:


> Wait, where exactly are we getting the largest resort in the Northeast from, the 8 miles of snomaking pipe quote?
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but 8 miles of snowmaking pipe doesnt seem like enough to create the largest resort in the Northeast, unless they are planning on substantial natural product....
> 
> I feel like 8 miles would do just one or two pods at Killington, presumably with Skyeship base being one of them.



Depends. Killington has lots of short vertical pods so you might get two if you run pipe between two trails. Somewhere with more continuous vertical you'd get one pod.


Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone mobile app


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## deadheadskier (Jun 11, 2014)

The topography and location doesn't support a new "largest area in the east."  Not even close really.

I think Les knows this.  I also think Les knows how to to generate excitement about the future by talking up his dreams of grandeur for a place.

That said, they get 225" of natural a year, most in New Hampshire.  

Who knows if or where the capital will come from.  

Currently, Sugarloaf is the biggest ski area in the east and it's actually a little bit easier to get to than the Balsams and has a FAR better mountain, arguably the best vertical/terrain offering there is on the East Coast.  

What would it take from the Balsams as a "mega eastern ski resort" to make people consider it a better place to go than Sugarloaf. 

  I can't think of anything.


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## Mapnut (Jun 11, 2014)

Would you think that Les's record in ski development would help or actually hurt in finding investors?


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## DoublePlanker (Jun 11, 2014)

Mapnut said:


> Would you think that Les's record in ski development would help or actually hurt in finding investors?



I think it helps.  The development of Sunday River was very successful.  ASC melted down but mostly from bungling the acquisitions.


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## VTKilarney (Jun 11, 2014)

As far-fetched as his ideas may be, I'm happy to see somebody at least trying.  And it's not just anybody...


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## ThinkSnow (Sep 4, 2014)

ss20 said:


> I believe opening the original resort is definitely plausible.



I was hiking in Dixville Notch in June, and wandered around the Balsams property.  It is far from ready to reopen, and definitely not as the "original" resort.  Other than the buildings that were intentionally demolished, a lot of the remaining structure is literally falling down (not visible from Route 26).


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## mbedle (Sep 4, 2014)

yeggous said:


> Depends. Killington has lots of short vertical pods so you might get two if you run pipe between two trails. Somewhere with more continuous vertical you'd get one pod.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using AlpineZone mobile app



The 8-mile referenced was to install a pipeline from Androscoggin River to the resort. Not actually snow making pipelines.


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## mbedle (Sep 4, 2014)

I also wonder if the "Largest" comes from them owning 10K acres and plan to open it up to all outdoor activities. In theory, they would be the biggest, just not for skiing.


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## thetrailboss (Sep 4, 2014)

ThinkSnow said:


> I was hiking in Dixville Notch in June, and wandered around the Balsams property.  It is far from ready to reopen, and definitely not as the "original" resort.  Other than the buildings that were intentionally demolished, a lot of the remaining structure is literally falling down (not visible from Route 26).



Sad, so sad.


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## VTKilarney (Sep 4, 2014)

Since Otten is relying on EB-5 money, this project certainly has its challenges.  As Jay Peak has demonstrated, there are significant barriers to raising EB-5 funds in a rural area.

It is also my understanding that the buildings that are still standing have been absolutely gutted - right down to removal of pipes and anything else that has even the slightest scrap value.  I've been told that the funds raised by selling and scrapping everything, as well as income from the sale of timber, paid for the purchase of the property (and perhaps then some).  While this may be good for the current owners, the result is that getting the resort back in operation will be MUCH more than just a rehab job.


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## ThinkSnow (Sep 4, 2014)

VTKilarney said:


> It is also my understanding that the buildings that are still standing have been absolutely gutted



The buildings visible from Rt 26 were not completely gutted.  The interior looked quite in-tact (carpeting, chandeliers, etc.)

Can't speak for those that were collapsing.


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## VTKilarney (Sep 4, 2014)

That's encouraging.  Hopefully my source was wrong.


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## mbedle (Sep 4, 2014)

Its interesting to look at Google street view. They actually filmed a bunch of snowmobile runs around the resort property. Plus you can clearly see what buildings they have already torn down.


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## ThinkSnow (Sep 4, 2014)

If the wiring and plumbing is as old as the resort, it wouldn't surprise me if they were going to all be replaced-- just hopefully while keeping the historical charm of the place in-tact.  When the Mountain View Grand was initially remodeled, all the interior history of the place was lost.


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## ThinkSnow (Oct 7, 2014)

View from Table Rock back in June


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## ThinkSnow (Oct 7, 2014)

View at back of building


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## Puck it (Oct 7, 2014)

They should definitely be ready for the season!!!


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## ThinkSnow (Oct 27, 2014)

The project is moving forward!

http://www.unionleader.com/article/20141027/NEWS02/141029145/-1/news


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## MadMadWorld (Oct 27, 2014)

I stayed there once as a kid and wow how things have changed. I hope they bring the place back to what it looked like in its glory day.


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## VTKilarney (Oct 27, 2014)

Holy cow.  While they still have a long way to go, this is still great news.


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## ThinkSnow (Nov 2, 2014)

Visited again this past weekend.  There definitely seems to be some activity going on.  Vehicles driving through both hotel property and ski area.  Due to no trespassing signs, did not get onto the ski area property as I had hoped to. Keeping my fingers crossed that Les Otten won't destroy all the history of the place.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 22, 2014)

There still appears to be momentum:
http://www.wcax.com/story/27685201/resort-developers-seek-approval-for-snowmaking


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## ThinkSnow (Feb 26, 2015)

More news:
http://www.berlindailysun.com/index...lsams-project&catid=103:local-news&Itemid=442


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## blue_ox (Feb 26, 2015)

Ambitious.
http://thebalsamsresort.com/vision/ski-expansion/


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## Edd (Feb 26, 2015)

blue_ox said:


> Ambitious.
> http://thebalsamsresort.com/vision/ski-expansion/



Jumping Jesus!


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## Jully (Feb 26, 2015)

What especially caught my eye was the minimal intersections for the trails. I really hope they can pull that off because so few expansions these days seem to really emphasize that


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## skiMEbike (Feb 26, 2015)

blue_ox said:


> Ambitious.
> http://thebalsamsresort.com/vision/ski-expansion/



Exactly.   Les is at it again.   I don't see how they can claim or expand enough to have the most veritical with KTon at 3000+ & the Loaf at 2800+.   Best I can tell they'd be lucky to get 2000 ft of vertical.   Maybe its another one of Les' marketing gimmicks:   "Most Vertical _ in Coos County_ "


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## deadheadskier (Feb 26, 2015)

I'd say Les Otten probably wants to pull that off.  He's made some trail development mistakes over the years, but not as bad as some others.  He did a pretty darn good job with expanding Sunday River and not having a lot of intersections on the trails.  


The one thing that strikes me is "largest vertical drop" in the East.  I wouldn't think that's possible given the terrain they are working with up there.   Seems crazy, but I'm all for someone building the largest ski area in the East at a location that gets the snow that the Balsams does.


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## EPB (Feb 26, 2015)

DHS - do you know how much snow they get up there? Information seems a little sparse, but it looks like they get in the low to mid 200 inch range which is solid. Does that sounds about right?


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## deadheadskier (Feb 26, 2015)

yes, I believe it's about 225.  It's no Tug Hill, but pretty darn good.


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## EPB (Feb 26, 2015)

Absolutely - that's just about tops for eastern areas outside N. VT.


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## Edd (Feb 26, 2015)

That base elevation is very helpful for retention. It seems to do wonders for the snow quality at Saddleback.


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## JDMRoma (Feb 26, 2015)

usually some of the best snowmobiling in the state is right there.......would make sense with that amount of snowfall.......


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## AdironRider (Feb 26, 2015)

They also probably hold the best snow quality on average on the East Coast. Even eliminating just 1/2 the freeze thaw cycles from everything further south works wonders.


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## freeski (Feb 26, 2015)

The valley on the other side of the notch must be pretty deep to get the vertical or if I remember as you go south the terrain drops off. Good luck Mr. Otten. 
I used to spend time at Sunday River in the summer and from talking to the people from Bethel and Newry they still love him.


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## drjeff (Feb 26, 2015)

skiMEbike said:


> Exactly.   Les is at it again.   I don't see how they can claim or expand enough to have the most veritical with KTon at 3000+ & the Loaf at 2800+.   Best I can tell they'd be lucky to get 2000 ft of vertical.   Maybe its another one of Les' marketing gimmicks:   "Most Vertical _ in Coos County_ "




Looked like from what I read on that link that the "most" they're talking about isn't vertical drop, but skiable acres


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## deadheadskier (Feb 26, 2015)

lbo said:
			
		

> with 2,200 skiable acres of alpine terrain, the largest vertical drop, and 100 km of nordic trails, the balsams will be larger and more varied than any other resort in the east.



not sure how it can be interpreted another way


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## x10003q (Feb 26, 2015)

When did Les Otten become a comedian? 
He has 3 transport lifts of 1 mile or longer coming out of the Balsam Lake Village base area. There is no way that is happening. The more likely scenario is a couple of $5k used school buses.
The current base elevation is around 1750ft - not 2350ft. If he is allowed to go down to Rt 26 on the east side of the Notch he might be able to claim a 1400ft elevation base.The highest point is one of the wind turbines at around 3500ft elevation. Who knows how close they can come to the turbines.
He also managed to create a map with multiple redundant lifts including some that serve only a few of trails and or a few hundred vertical feet.
He guess he figured if he made the map so crazy nobody would question it.

Go Big or Go Home  :lol:


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## deadheadskier (Feb 26, 2015)

If anything comes of this development that even approaches half this build out, I'll be curious to see what becomes of the town of Colebrook.  It's a pretty charming little town and is only 10 miles away from the ski area.  By comparison, the Village of Stowe is about 7.5 miles from the ski area.   I wonder it if Colebrook would see much of an expansion in hospitality related businesses.   Same goes for Errol on the other side with the lake right there for summertime activities.


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## skiMEbike (Feb 26, 2015)

drjeff said:


> Looked like from what I read on that link that the "most" they're talking about isn't vertical drop, but skiable acres



You are right...he's a marketing genius.  The write up says "largest" vertical....I can see it now:  Ski the Balsams'   *1500 Vertical Feet*


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## drjeff (Feb 26, 2015)

skiMEbike said:


> You are right...he's a marketing genius.  The write up says "largest" vertical....I can see it now:  Ski the Balsams'   *1500 Vertical Feet*



As I learned from Les's ASC era marketing genius days, longest steepest widest is different than longest, steepest, widest so its ALWAYS good to read his marketing info a few times


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## danimals (Feb 26, 2015)

no words on a timeline?


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## Jully (Feb 26, 2015)

Well they have phase one being about the size of Waterville... and I can't see 1500' vertical in that part of New Hampshire generating any where near enough revenue to justify another expansion. So phase one I think I've heard they are trying to open for the '16-'17 season, but I'll be shocked if it gets beyond that.


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## snoseek (Feb 27, 2015)

I pulled up for my internship at this place on May 5th and there were 20 foot deep banks in that notch. Snow is as good as it gets back east and they retain it better than most for sure. My home area at Kirkwood now is 1800 feet at best and we all have a grand time....Alta Supreme lift is like 9oo feet. You don't need 3k vert to build a premiere are, of course it helps.

I really can only hope they reinstate the culinary school that was in place. It was awesome. You don't remember hearing too much about as  not a lot made it through. The ones that did were all amazing chefs, a very unique program.


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## noreasterbackcountry (Feb 27, 2015)

blue_ox said:


> Ambitious.
> http://thebalsamsresort.com/vision/ski-expansion/



Wow.  Just wow.


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## Jully (Feb 27, 2015)

http://m.nhpr.org/?utm_referrer=htt...ry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=233#mobile/64545
Claims to be investing quite a bit of his own money. Very intriguing.


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## MadMadWorld (Feb 28, 2015)

Is the mountain that Balsams ski area on really that big?


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## Newpylong (Feb 28, 2015)

Yes


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## steamboat1 (Feb 28, 2015)

MadMadWorld said:


> Is the mountain that Balsams ski area on really that big?


Kinda like Sunday River. No peaks are particularly high but it's a wide ridge of peaks. Colebrook is sorta like the old west but instead of a empty town with tumbleweed blowing around they have snow.


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 2, 2015)

http://www.newenglandskihistory.com.../balsamswilderness/googleearth-2013-0900a.jpg


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## skiMEbike (Mar 2, 2015)

MadMadWorld said:


> Is the mountain that Balsams ski area on really that big?



"Yes" to have the largest vertical in the East (as the write up proclaims),  however, "No" to the most vertical in the East....

Kind of like White Heat being the Widest Steepest expert trail, but not being the Steepest, Widest expert trail...;-)


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## MadMadWorld (Mar 2, 2015)

skiMEbike said:


> "Yes" to have the largest vertical in the East (as the write up proclaims),  however, "No" to the most vertical in the East....
> 
> Kind of like White Heat being the Widest Steepest expert trail, but not being the Steepest, Widest expert trail...;-)



Ahh clear as mud :what:


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 2, 2015)

Well that is certainly FAR more ambitious than I was thinking! :lol:

I think the "Largest Vertical Drop" claim may come at full build out. If totaling up the vertical of ALL of the trails, the total number would surpass Killington. This would be very possible given that a lot of those pods are between 1000 and 1400 vert.

Other things...
1440 lowest elevation I can find (bottom of Pod on the north side of "East Village" in the Route 26 valley).
3431 highest elev I can find (Sub peak to the East of Dixville Peak)
Total (not anywhere close to continuous) vert = 1991 But I'm sure Les will squeeze out the other 9 feet somewhere to get to the 2000 mark, even if it is in the river .
3.5 miles end to end
Two short upper mountain pods (700'-850' vert) with tops over 3000' that would make excellent candidates for first to open in the east.


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## wa-loaf (Mar 2, 2015)

Do they get much snow there? How long is the drive? Hope he plans on getting a lot of people from Canada because you have to drive past a lot of good skiing to get there.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 2, 2015)

Master Plan (blown up a bit):




Overlaid in Google Earth: Clicking on the pictures should open them larger.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 2, 2015)

The three transfer lifts from the hotel is pretty funny.  That will definitely happen.  :lol:


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 2, 2015)

IMHO the number of visitors a resort this size would need to be feasible is HUGE. I just don't see that many people giving up their current haunts to go there.


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 2, 2015)

wa-loaf said:


> Do they get much snow there? How long is the drive? Hope he plans on getting a lot of people from Canada because you have to drive past a lot of good skiing to get there.


Not sure about snowfall, but has latitude similar to Jay Peak.  Driving, its about another 90 minutes past Wildcat or Cannon (give or take).  It would make a good Canadian destination at 2.5 hours from Montreal, approx 4 from Quebec.  Size wise, would be huge compared to local QC areas.


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 2, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> The three transfer lifts from the hotel is pretty funny.  That will definitely happen.  :lol:


 Perhaps they will try for 3 but will be satisfied with
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 2?  On this hotel remodel, there are only 2 lifts from the hotel.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 2, 2015)

The timing is a little rough as far as the exchange rate is concerned.  

For this to work, there has to be a plan to build quite a bit of lodging.  

I really hope it happens.  But I'm also not that far away.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 2, 2015)

ThinkSnow said:


> Perhaps they will try for 3 but will be satisfied with
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think the other lift may be on the other end of the "pedestrian/skier" bridge.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 2, 2015)

What is the point of the really short lift in the East Village area?  Condos?  Beginner terrain?


----------



## from_the_NEK (Mar 2, 2015)

Additionally, the HUGE new building (lighter orange/tan color) would dwarf the old hotel.


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## MadMadWorld (Mar 2, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> IMHO the number of visitors a resort this size would need to be feasible is HUGE. I just don't see that many people giving up their current haunts to go there.



People will in droves at least first. We had some mountain reopen before but no where near this. Sunday River is really the last time I remember such a huge expansion. It's something new and everyone will want to check it out


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## Edd (Mar 3, 2015)

I wonder how long, on average, it takes to carve out a ski trail? Not just clearing trees, but digging up and removing stumps. Seems like a monumental amount of work.


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## drjeff (Mar 3, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> The three transfer lifts from the hotel is pretty funny.  That will definitely happen.  :lol:



I know those transfer lift routings are proposed in this master plan diagram, but I have to think that with the exception of the 1 transfer lift that goes from the hotel to the existing ski area, the other 2 could potentially mess with the iconic view you get looking from the hotel over across Dixsville Notch to Table rock and the vise versa view looking from the top of Table Rock down to the hotel 

The view from the top of Table Rock looking down at the hotel






And from the hotel looking at Table Rock/Dixsville Notch (One of the transfer lifts in the routing looks like it would be quite close to the right hand side of this view


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## drjeff (Mar 3, 2015)

Edd said:


> I wonder how long, on average, it takes to carve out a ski trail? Not just clearing trees, but digging up and removing stumps. Seems like a monumental amount of work.



Not as big a project with modern logging and earth moving equipment as you'd think for just the trees and stumps.  Dealing with ledge, which might require some blasting to allow for a decent contoured trail for both skiing and riding and also minimizing run off effects, is what tends to slow modern trail clearing and development a bit


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 3, 2015)

whoever is funding this is High...   Les Otten is High...  

No way this gets built.  Reopened, maybe but no way they can get a megaresort like that permitted and constructed in Remote northern New Hampshire.


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## Smellytele (Mar 3, 2015)

jimmywilson69 said:


> whoever is funding this is High...   Les Otten is High...
> 
> No way this gets built.  Reopened, maybe but no way they can get a megaresort like that permitted and constructed in Remote northern New Hampshire.


This isn't Vermont...


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## mbedle (Mar 3, 2015)

Not a ton of vertical, looks to be maxed out at 1,500 at the lift running down towards Route 26 (south of cascade gorge). Extremely steep in the area under that lift. Marketing wise, they will probably go for 1,900 vertical, starting at 3,400 down to around 1,500). That would put them in the same class as the other majors.


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## mbedle (Mar 3, 2015)

Not only is it not Vermont with Act 250 issues, but it is also all on private land. No lease requirements needed for this project.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 3, 2015)

Wish this was a bit south of there on the Pliny Range.  That would have the vert and width to be something spectacular


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## jimmywilson69 (Mar 3, 2015)

ok all that being said.  I still think they are High...


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 3, 2015)

jimmywilson69 said:


> ok all that being said.  I still think they are High...



As mentioned earlier, this is not VT.  ;-)


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 3, 2015)

The Colebrook area has been hit HARD financially over the past several years.  If the money can be raised, I think that the state would be very much behind this project.


----------



## mbedle (Mar 3, 2015)

Wasn't there an issue with the setback requirements with the turbines along the ridge. Does anyone know if that issues has been resolved. I think this was talked about earlier in the thread, just not sure what the outcome was.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 3, 2015)

mbedle said:


> Wasn't there an issue with the setback requirements with the turbines along the ridge. Does anyone know if that issues has been resolved. I think this was talked about earlier in the thread, just not sure what the outcome was.


I know that the anti-wind advocates say that the turbines throw ice.  Is this actually the case?  If so, they would need to keep some distance.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 3, 2015)

Here is an article about the setback issue.  The source is biased, mind you:
http://www.windaction.org/posts/404...e-wind-turbine-setbacks-question#.VPXfJ_nF-So


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## Smellytele (Mar 3, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I know that the anti-wind advocates say that the turbines throw ice.  Is this actually the case?  If so, they would need to keep some distance.



The one at Burke is pretty close to the trails. No issue with ice yet being flung around that i know of.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 3, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> The one at Burke is pretty close to the trails. No issue with ice yet being flung around that i know of.


I got the impression that the ones near the Balsams were on a much bigger scale.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Mar 3, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> The one at Burke is pretty close to the trails. No issue with ice yet being flung around that i know of.



The one at Burke is 3 times smaller than the 400+ foot tall industrial turbines near the Balsams.


----------



## Jully (Mar 3, 2015)

Turbines at the top of Big Rock in Maine are in the middle of the lift unloading zone. You can ski right up to the base of the turbine and touch the pole if you wanted to. The Balsams ones are also much bigger than those too though.

The state would be behind it, but they also appear mildly reluctant to fund $25 million towards it. Not that I blame them, but Les says without that state money the project is dead.


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 3, 2015)

The wind towers at big rock Maine are the big ass ones.  Ski trails go within 150 feet or less of the towers.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 3, 2015)

Jully said:


> The state would be behind it, but they also appear mildly reluctant to fund $25 million towards it. Not that I blame them, but Les says without that state money the project is dead.


Ahh... I didn't realize that the state would have to come up with that sort of money.  That changes things.


----------



## Smellytele (Mar 3, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Ahh... I didn't realize that the state would have to come up with that sort of money.  That changes things.



It is a 28 mil bond. I could be wrong but I thought that I read that the state would back the bond but the Balsams would be the ones paying it back


----------



## EPB (Mar 3, 2015)

Yeah the issue is that the state is on the hook for the money if Leslie and the boys go belly up.


----------



## Puck it (Mar 3, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> It is a 28 mil bond. I could be wrong but I thought that I read that the state would back the bond but the Balsams would be the ones paying it back


 
And if it fails, the state pays or is their insurance on the bond?


----------



## Jully (Mar 3, 2015)

I think the state is supposed to be entitled to their money back through a lean on the resort's assets if it goes belly up, but it's understandable why they might not pass the bond.


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## EPB (Mar 3, 2015)

The state would be the insurer to investors in this case most likely and investors would be at the mercy of the state to get paid out if the deal went sideways. The state would probably have the lien on the property as opposed to bond holders but I'm not 100% on that. Of course the reason why the banks wouldn't lend the group the money is because the lien is worthless if they can't get the resort off the ground and cash flow positive at the very least.


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 3, 2015)

Jully said:


> I think the state is supposed to be entitled to their money back through a lean on the resort's assets if it goes belly up, but it's understandable why they might not pass the bond.



Problem is the resorts assets are likely to be worth less on the open market than the $25M unless they are VERY successful.  The property sold for only $2.3M to the current ownership group.   

I'm not supportive of the state getting involved.  

I think they should call Otten's bluff and see if he can find a private source for capital.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 3, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I think they should call Otten's bluff and see if he can find a private source for capital.


Is it a bluff?  If he is saying that he needs the state to assist because he can't find private equity, I would tend to believe him.


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 3, 2015)

All developers want and try for state assistance, whether it's tax breaks or paying for infrastructure.

Look at sports stadiums.  Always a back and forth chess match to see who pays for what.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 3, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> All developers want and try for state assistance, whether it's tax breaks or paying for infrastructure.
> 
> Look at sports stadiums.  Always a back and forth chess match to see who pays for what.


I can point to MANY sports stadiums that were never built because no public financing came through.  I am not sure that Otten is actually bluffing here.


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 3, 2015)

And I can point to many where the developer took on added costs they wanted a municipality to pay for.  So what?

I think the state is involved enough financially in our tourism industry.  I'd rather see that money directed at already viable state parks.  

If Otten can't pay for it, tuff luck.  Call CNL or Vail.  Maybe they'll take the action if it's got potential.   I doubt he's exhausted all options.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 3, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> And I can point to many where the developer took on added costs they wanted a municipality to pay for.  So what?


So neither of us truly know if Otten is bluffing, that's what.


----------



## ThinkSnow (Mar 3, 2015)

From the Balsams Plan Book 1:

The Century Club is being developed by [Balsams View, LLC or Balsams Resort Properties, LLC, a subsidiary
of Balsams Resort Holdings, LLC] (“Developer”). The Developer is the owner of certain property located
at and known as the Hampshire House and the Dix House located at the Balsams Resort (“Resort”) in the
Town of Dixville, Coos County, State of New Hampshire, which Developer intends to redevelop, renovate and
convert into a condominium to be established pursuant to N.H. R.S.A. 356-B (the “Project”), with residential
units in the Project to be offered and sold in a fractional form of ownership (the “Century Club Units”),
together with membership in the Century Club, a private membership club being established by the Seller.
The Project and the Century Club Units have not been registered with the New Hampshire Consumer and
Antitrust Bureau of the Attorney General’s Office, Department of Justice, and until such registration has
occurred only non-binding reservation agreements may be accepted.


Only non-binding reservations to purchase Century Club Units are being offered at this time. The deposit
made upon signing a non-binding reservation is refundable at any time upon request and the reservation may
be cancelled at any time and for any reason, or without reason, by the purchaser without penalty.


Information and plans pertaining to the proposed development of the Project as described on this website,
together with depictions of improvements, amenities, privileges, land uses and public and private facilities
related to the Project and the Century Club (“Improvements”) are conceptual only, with development of the
Improvements being subject to governmental approvals and market factors. 

The development of the Project and the Improvements is expected to take many years and development plans will likely be modified from time to time to respond to varying market conditions and changes in circumstances, such that the Developer
reserves the right to modify or abandon plans for the proposed development (in whole or in part) at any time
without notice. Nothing in these materials obligates Developer or any other entity to build any facilities or
Improvements described herein, and there is no guarantee that any described proposed development or
Improvements will be implemented. Some or all of the proposed amenities and Improvements described
on this website have not yet been constructed. No guarantee is made that the features, amenities and
Improvements described will be built, or, if built, will be the same type, size, or nature as described. The
information and materials described herein, together with any communication made or given in connection
with any of the foregoing, is not a representation or warranty and may not otherwise be relied upon as such.
[All prices are subject to change without notice].


----------



## MEtoVTSkier (Mar 3, 2015)

Edd said:


> I wonder how long, on average, it takes to carve out a ski trail? Not just clearing trees, but digging up and removing stumps. Seems like a monumental amount of work.



How much work was done at Mittersill this year in a short amount of time?


----------



## Puck it (Mar 3, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> How much work was done at Mittersill this year in a short amount of time?




It was trail wideing on one trail.  It was done in 2-3 months.


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## EPB (Mar 3, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> And I can point to many where the developer took on added costs they wanted a municipality to pay for.  So what?
> 
> I think the state is involved enough financially in our tourism industry.  I'd rather see that money directed at already viable state parks.
> 
> If Otten can't pay for it, tuff luck.  Call CNL or Vail.  Maybe they'll take the action if it's got potential.   I doubt he's exhausted all options.



I doubt anyone would be interested. It would be cheaper to just buy an existing resort than build from the ground up in Dixville Notch. This reminds me of Curt Schilling in Rhode Island. When the capital markets know not to find you, see if the government is dumb enough to loan you the money in the name of job creation/economic development.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 3, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> So neither of us truly know if Otten is bluffing, that's what.



Do you not play cards?  You don't know if someone is bluffing unless you call it.

What I'm saying is at minimum the state should say "No" and see what happens.   I highly doubt Les just says, "okay, I give up" and moves on from a project of this scale.  He'll likely reevaluate and absorb more of the risk away from the state than what he's currently asking.

If not, oh well.  No Balsams.  Hopefully somebody else comes along with deeper pockets.


----------



## EPB (Mar 3, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Do you not play cards?  You don't know if someone is bluffing unless you call it.
> 
> What I'm saying is at minimum the state should say "No" and see what happens.   I highly doubt Les just says, "okay, I give up" and moves on from a project of this scale.  He'll likely reevaluate and absorb more of the risk away from the state than what he's currently asking.
> 
> If not, oh well.  No Balsams.  Hopefully somebody else comes along with deeper pockets.



There's probably no-one else. He and the state both are likely well aware of that too. He probably needs financial leverage from somewhere to justify the returns he's modelling for investors. Remember he has less than 1% of the equity in the deal and that he's only going to get through phase one with the $143 million. Playing hardball isn't a terrible idea to talk him down/ gut check him a bit, but there's a real possibility that his group represents the last hope for the Balsams as we know it.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 3, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Do you not play cards?  You don't know if someone is bluffing unless you call it.



Respectfully, this is not a card game.  This is a complex business transaction.  I agree that the state should protect its money to the extent possible and obtain quite a bit of information before committing to anything.  If the economic model doesn't warrant state investment, they should walk away.  But it's not as simple an affair as you make it out to be - and treating entrepreneurs as poker opponents is not the best economic development model.  I find that respectful dialogue is a much better model.


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 3, 2015)

Did I say that?  I said find a partner with deeper pockets like CNL or Vail


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 3, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Did I say that?  I said find a partner with deeper pockets like CNL or Vail


You assume that this is a viable option.


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 3, 2015)

If it's not, then no deal.

I think I've been clear about that.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 3, 2015)

That's pretty rough for an area that's as economically depressed as the Colebrook area.  I guess I would want to see some numbers before making a decision.  

Keep in mind that if the ski area breaks even, the state will still receive significant tax revenues from rooms and meals taxes.  (If the ski area can't break even, then it's much riskier to invest in it.)  I'm not sure if those revenues justify the requested outlay, but I'd sure want to know before forming a final opinion on the matter.

And as a skier... I'm always happy to see a new ski area crop up.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Mar 3, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Keep in mind that if the ski area breaks even, the state will still receive significant tax revenues from rooms and meals taxes.



And how much of that is simply poached from existing NH ski areas? Therefore not really increasing incoming tax flow.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 3, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> And how much of that is simply poached from existing NH ski areas? Therefore not really increasing incoming tax flow.


That is a good point.  My guess is that there will be quite a few Canadians who would not have skied in New Hampshire otherwise.  But that should definitely be researched.


----------



## freeski (Mar 3, 2015)

Most ski areas are built facing north. I think the original mountain is north, so there are many slopes facing south. It will be kind of hard to hold snow. Maybe they're planning to make up for it by making a ton of snow with a new efficient system.


----------



## EPB (Mar 3, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Did I say that?  I said find a partner with deeper pockets like CNL or Vail



Vail would never take this project on. Buying a feeder hill like Wawa or just buying all of peak resorts (their maker value today is about $102 million today per their website) would make way more strategic sense for them. Vail's two Midwest hills are about 30 and 60 mins from Minneapolis-St. Paul and Detroit, respectively. They are not resorts. The whole point is to get people to buy the epic pass for their family and have them spend the big money out west at Vail's western resorts. Building the Balsams would compete with its western resorts. 

CNL is a REIT. I doubt they would have any interest in building a resort out. They are in the business of buying existing properties and leading them back to opetators.


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 3, 2015)

That's rough?  Me being a taxpayer and not wanting my state to assume a financial risk in a property that's got a LONG history of never making money.  
OK


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 3, 2015)

eastern powder baby said:


> Vail would never take this project on. Buying a feeder hill like Wawa or just buying all of peak resorts (their maker value today is about $102 million today per their website) would make way more strategic sense for them. Vail's two Midwest hills are about 30 and 60 mins from Minneapolis-St. Paul and Detroit, respectively. They are not resorts. The whole point is to get people to buy the epic pass for their family and have them spend the big money out west at Vail's western resorts. Building the Balsams would compete with its western resorts.
> 
> CNL is a REIT. I doubt they would have any interest in building a resort out. They are in the business of buying existing properties and leading them back to opetators.



Find a partner "like".....meaning private money.  Maybe Boyne, maybe venture capital.  

There have been other minimally developed and tired resorts that have been bought by venture capitalists in recent years.  Powder Mountain, Utah and Taos, New Mexico.   Did those states step in and offer to assume some financial risk?


----------



## Jully (Mar 3, 2015)

freeski said:


> Most ski areas are built facing north. I think the original mountain is north, so there are many slopes facing south. It will be kind of hard to hold snow. Maybe they're planning to make up for it by making a ton of snow with a new efficient system.



That would be an easy way for the state to insure their $25 million, just force them to buy it in snowmaking. That's infrastructure that holds it's value well. Probably going to be a HSQ or two as well besides the gondola so there's a good chance the state would be able to get it's money out. 

Besides it's not simply the state getting itself involved in investing, they're not looking to turn the biggest profit with their bonds, they are trying to revitalize a really dead area. If this project is successful it would completely change the face of northern NH. 

With a reasonably secure way to get their money out if it fails unless it REALLY fails which I don't think it will, and a chance to do some much needed economic assistance to a region with very little to offer otherwise, I don't think it's a stupid idea. I definitely understand why lawmakers would support it.


----------



## Jully (Mar 3, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> And how much of that is simply poached from existing NH ski areas? Therefore not really increasing incoming tax flow.



The amount of real estate that will be sold will provide a pretty unique revenue stream. Otten seems to be pushing a lot of the resort as very upscale and that'll be a different sort of tax stream than any other NH resort offers right now except maybe Loon. The Balsams is not going to be a day tripper kind of place.


----------



## EPB (Mar 3, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Find a partner "like".....meaning private money.  Maybe Boyne, maybe venture capital.
> 
> There have been other minimally developed and tired resorts that have been bought by venture capitalists in recent years.  Powder Mountain, Utah and Taos, New Mexico.   Did those states step in and offer to assume some financial risk?



I understand that you weren't necessarily suggesting that Vail or CNL would be interested in developing the Balsams. I do find it illustrative just how bad a strategic fit the Balsams would be for Vail because I don't think that the development is a good idea for anyone to spend their money on (Leslie and the boys included) with cheaper options to buy outright as I mentioned previously. The fact that phase 1 would cost more than what Peak Resorts is worth is pretty ridiculous. 

The Taos situation is actually more egregious than The Balsams' ask - a quick google search yielded this nugget: http://www.taosnews.com/news/article_67a93718-bfae-11e4-9502-ab9d12e957d5.html. I'd say this is worse for a couple reasons: 1) if the owner is truly a billionaire, he could theoretically fund the $300 investment plan a minimum of 3 and change times over. I doubt the same can be true for Les (or that anyone would disagree); and 2) Their bond deal is for $44 million which is a good 50% over the Balsams team's initial ask of $28 million. In full disclosure, I'm not well versed on the TIDD program, or if it's being considered for the Balsams. 

I couldn't find anything on Powder Mountain in Utah. I would note, however that Powder Mountain was acquired for $40 million, so I presume that they would be able to secure bank financing without any difficulty. I didn't find a quick number for the Taos Ski Valley sale, but the family that owned it previously did have debt outstanding, so municipal bonds weren't the only option like is the case is in Dixville.

I don't think that the state has much in terms of negotiating power besides the "we can't offer that much money" defense because nobody is likely to ever consider injecting over $100 million into the area again. I'm the guy who doesn't think that Cannon should be run by the state because operating a ski area is way beyond the scope of what state governments are designed to do, so obviously I'm not one to get excited over the idea of the state trying to act as a loan insurer for a ski development. My point is Otten knows that this is the opportunity of a lifetime for Dixville Notch and perhaps the Hotel's last real hope. He's the one with the leverage because the is the ONLY option.


----------



## MadMadWorld (Mar 3, 2015)

What is the terrain like? I've never been but heard there was some decent stuff.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 3, 2015)

Interesting to watch....


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 3, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> That's rough?  Me being a taxpayer and not wanting my state to assume a financial risk in a property that's got a LONG history of never making money.
> OK


You are misrepresenting what I said.  I said that it is rough to encourage the state to have a steadfast negative position prior to obtaining the relevant facts.  I think that the state should get the data before making a decision.  I think that most people would find my position to be more reasonable.


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 3, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I think that most people would find my position to be more reasonable.



Great!  I didn't realize there was a contest.  

Sorry you have a problem with me not wanting my state to be financially tied to the project.  You know, I hope the lawmakers take a look about 75 miles to the east.  About 12 years ago Saddleback had one of those fancy maps with all these lifts, trails and real estate development.  It was going to be the next big mega-resort in the East and transform the Rangeley area.   Fast forward to today and maybe 10% of what they wanted to accomplish has been done, and they're trying to sell.  They sunk $40M into the place and are trying to get $12M. 

 People are free to think that the Balsams' story might have a different ending than Saddleback.  I don't.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 3, 2015)

There is no point in going around and around about this.  You have pre-determined the matter and I am suggesting that the state should gather facts prior to making an ultimate decision.  Our positions are clear.  Move on.


----------



## mbedle (Mar 4, 2015)

I find it interesting that their website says this resort will have the largest vertical drop of all east resorts! Not to sure about that fact, got to love marketing.


----------



## River19 (Mar 4, 2015)

Very ambitious plan.  It looks like the plan so far is purely Ski season.  I didn't see anything mentioned about reviving the golf course and or any type of summer activities/draw planned.


----------



## Edd (Mar 4, 2015)

River19 said:


> Very ambitious plan.  It looks like the plan so far is purely Ski season.  I didn't see anything mentioned about reviving the golf course and or any type of summer activities/draw planned.



The Conway Daily Sun has an article today that mentions the golf course being a part of the initial phase, designed by Donald Ross, whoever that is.


----------



## drjeff (Mar 4, 2015)

River19 said:


> Very ambitious plan.  It looks like the plan so far is purely Ski season.  I didn't see anything mentioned about reviving the golf course and or any type of summer activities/draw planned.



In the big scheme of things, the golf course and the other summer activites at the Balsams are a much more known commodity and won't be nearly the big gamble that the ski resort proposed expansion.

The Panorama Golf course there is a classic Donald Ross Design with great views, and one of the most memorable courses I've ever played.  Reviving a golf course like that after a few years isn't nearly the challenge that massively expanding a ski area is and/or getting the pool area and hiking/paddle boat/kayak areas back into "working order"


----------



## drjeff (Mar 4, 2015)

Edd said:


> The Conway Daily Sun has an article today that mentions the golf course being a part of the initial phase, designed by Donald Ross, whoever that is.




Donald Ross is(was) one of the most influential and significant significant golf course architects of all time!  Truly one of the "legends" of golf course design not just in the United States, but all over the world.  What he did during his heyday back in the early 1900's, in a time where earth moving wasn't nearly as easy as it is now, was spectacular and still gets rave reviews today, even to the point where many of his designs that have been in play for 100 years and have over time had some "evolving" (read as other people try and tweak what he initially did) often go through extensive reworking to undo the changes that others have done to his original design work and restore the course back to how he intended it to be - he was that good!


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## River19 (Mar 4, 2015)

drjeff said:


> In the big scheme of things, the golf course and the other summer activites at the Balsams are a much more known commodity and won't be nearly the big gamble that the ski resort proposed expansion.
> 
> The Panorama Golf course there is a classic Donald Ross Design with great views, and one of the most memorable courses I've ever played.  Reviving a golf course like that after a few years isn't nearly the challenge that massively expanding a ski area is and/or getting the pool area and hiking/paddle boat/kayak areas back into "working order"



I get that, and I'm familiar with Ross courses, what I was really thinking was....they had the golf course before, they had the lake, they had the pool......and they went belly up.  So I'm wondering if they are placing the entire turn around hope on the ski season and still running the resort the same in the summer which reminds me of the resort in Dirty Dancing or are they figuring out how to capture my demographic (30-50 years old with disposable income and many outdoor hobbies for all seasons).


----------



## drjeff (Mar 4, 2015)

River19 said:


> I get that, and I'm familiar with Ross courses, what I was really thinking was....they had the golf course before, they had the lake, they had the pool......and they went belly up.  So I'm wondering if they are placing the entire turn around hope on the ski season and still running the resort the same in the summer which reminds me of the resort in Dirty Dancing or are they figuring out how to capture my demographic (30-50 years old with disposable income and many outdoor hobbies for all seasons).



One of the reasons why they went belly up was that they gambled (and lost) that in this age of information overload and the apparent need for 24/7 immediate access connectivity to the web and various other media outlets, especially for kids, that their "old school" ways (there weren't even TV's in the rooms the last time I stayed there 8 or 9 years ago) that they'd be able to draw the younger families there, where the parents now with younger kids might have gone to The Balsam's with their patents and grandparents when they were growing up.  Those families, when they saw something quite similar at The Mount Washington Hotel or The Mountainview, where they had all the charm of an old grand hotel but with modern amenities that will allow their kids to communicate with their friends at home, and still enjoy the outdoor majesty that the White Mountains offer, and often have a shorter drive to get there, helped seal the fate the the "old" Balsams IMHO


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 4, 2015)

Even when it was "with the times", the place lost money every year.  It was run as a hobby by a very wealthy man.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 4, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Even when it was "with the times", the place lost money every year.  It was run as a hobby by a very wealthy man.


That may be the reason it lost money.  It was run as a hobby and not someone proficient in the industry.  Who knows.


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## St. Bear (Mar 4, 2015)

Put a casino in.  Problem solved.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 4, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> That may be the reason it lost money.  It was run as a hobby and not someone proficient in the industry.  Who knows.



The guy ran it for 50 years.  He was on the Board for the New England Independent Resorts Association.   I've known a few industry people who knew him and spoke well of his knowledge as well as the management staff that he hired to help him.  I don't think his proficiency as a businessman was the issue.  I know the company I used to work for, Ocean Properties Limited looked at buying it and deemed it would never turn a profit.  OPL is the third largest family owned hotel company in NA and are no strangers to seasonal resorts owning pretty much half the tourism industry in Bar Harbor, the Sagamore in New York and other seasonal destinations. 

That's a big factor as to why I don't want the State of NH getting involved.  Everything OPL touches turns to gold.  If they didn't want anything to do with it, that's telling.


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## thebigo (Mar 4, 2015)

As a lifelong NH resident and lifelong skier, who would love to see this project built, I can assure any lawmaker that supports state involvement will never see another vote from me. NH has a viable four season resort area in north conway with terrible road access. Any available money would be much better spent upgrading rte 16. For scale the little bay bridge replacement between dover and portsmouth has a price tag in the $50M - $60M range. Granted the overall project has a much higher price tag but the bridge replacement alone is a project decades overdue that will impact far more lives than some investment secured with snow guns or high speed quads. 

Private money would be lining up for a stake if the project was viable. Remember reading that somewhere north of ten banks were lined up to loan demoulas $1.5B. This is because low cost food stores in populated areas make sense, grandiose resorts in the middle of nowhere do not make sense, especially when the person leading the charge has a record of failure in the industry.


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## Jully (Mar 4, 2015)

thebigo said:


> As a lifelong NH resident and lifelong skier, who would love to see this project built, I can assure any lawmaker that supports state involvement will never see another vote from me. NH has a viable four season resort area in north conway with terrible road access. Any available money would be much better spent upgrading rte 16. For scale the little bay bridge replacement between dover and portsmouth has a price tag in the $50M - $60M range. Granted the overall project has a much higher price tag but the bridge replacement alone is a project decades overdue that will impact far more lives than some investment secured with snow guns or high speed quads.
> 
> Private money would be lining up for a stake if the project was viable. Remember reading that somewhere north of ten banks were lined up to loan demoulas $1.5B. This is because low cost food stores in populated areas make sense, grandiose resorts in the middle of nowhere do not make sense, especially when the person leading the charge has a record of failure in the industry.



Very good point. How are the roads getting up there anyways? I get the impression that the roads north of Lancaster aren't the greatest.
If they do have $28 million to spend, there are infrastructure upgrades that would probably be better options. I also, unfortunately, don't think that if this bill fails the state will suddenly pump money into the Conway area though.


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## gmcunni (Mar 4, 2015)

must be pissing off the K crowd.


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## from_the_NEK (Mar 4, 2015)

gmcunni said:


> must be pissing off the K crowd.



If the Pico interconnect ever happens that would keep them pretty even.


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 4, 2015)

gmcunni said:


> must be pissing off the K crowd.



Shouldn't matter, as the Balsams is way too long of a drive for Kmart shoppers.


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## gmcunni (Mar 4, 2015)

ThinkSnow said:


> Shouldn't matter, as the Balsams is way too long of a drive for Kmart shoppers.



bragging rights.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 4, 2015)

Jully said:


> Very good point. How are the roads getting up there anyways? I get the impression that the roads north of Lancaster aren't the greatest.


The roads are not nearly as bad as you would think - at least as far as Route 3 is concerned.


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## St. Bear (Mar 4, 2015)

gmcunni said:


> bragging rights.



More than bragging rights.  K would have to change their entire marketing campaign.

Although, with Bracket Basin at Sugarloaf, you'd think they'd already have to do that...


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## Jully (Mar 4, 2015)

They'd probably just say "Killington, largest skiable resort within driving range of NYC"

They probably didn't change their scheme cause bracket is a backcountry area with no real lift service


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 4, 2015)

"Kmart

No longer the biggest

Never been the best

But who wants to drive any further?"


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## deadheadskier (Mar 4, 2015)

Actually plenty of people think K is the best.  The more that do the better as far as I'm concerned


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## Domeskier (Mar 4, 2015)

I like to bash Killington as much as the next guy, but I've never quite understood the rationale for suggesting that it has anything in common with a discount clothing retailer.


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 4, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Actually plenty of people think K is the best.  The more that do the better as far as I'm concerned



Good point


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## VTKilarney (Mar 4, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Actually plenty of people think K is the best.  The more that do the better as far as I'm concerned


I concur.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 4, 2015)

The legislative committee did just what I thought... Referred the bill to study.  Looks like it's dead this year unless Otten pulls a rabbit out of his hat. 


.


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## drjeff (Mar 4, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> The legislative committee did just what I thought... Referred the bill to study.  Looks like it's dead this year unless Otten pulls a rabbit out of his hat.
> 
> 
> .



And the modern version of "pulls a rabbit out his hat" is more like "hosts a bunch of decent $$ fundraisers for members of the legislative committee and/or speaker of the house... :smash:


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## gmcunni (Mar 4, 2015)

maybe the Hermitage guy can give him some lessons on just doing what you want and paying for it later.


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## x10003q (Mar 4, 2015)

Jully said:


> The amount of real estate that will be sold will provide a pretty unique revenue stream. Otten seems to be pushing a lot of the resort as very upscale and that'll be a different sort of tax stream than any other NH resort offers right now except maybe Loon. The Balsams is not going to be a day tripper kind of place.



Who is going to buy the mentioned 2500 units? The closest and biggest market is Canada. The Canadian market now has a devalued dollar @ .80US dollar, which will put a damper on Canadian sales. Will the Boston metro choose a "very upscale resort" that is difficult to get to compared to existing choices? It is a 5 hour ride from Hartford, CT, so they can forget about the NY metro. Who else might be the target market?

Location, location, location.


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## River19 (Mar 4, 2015)

x10003q said:


> Who is going to buy the mentioned 2500 units? The closest and biggest market is Canada. The Canadian market now has a devalued dollar @ .80US dollar, which will put a damper on Canadian sales. Will the Boston metro choose a "very upscale resort" that is difficult to get to compared to existing choices? It is a 5 hour ride from Hartford, CT, so they can forget about the NY metro. Who else might be the target market?
> 
> Location, location, location.



Agree.  2500 is a lot of units, heck 1000 is a lot of units to sell.  We have our place in the NEK, and we drive 225 miles in about 3.5 hours about 3 out of 5 weeks per year.......to Dixville Notch is "only" 30-35miles longer but it would tack on an easy 60-90mins and God help you if you get weather....Rt 3 becomes 25mph not 60mph.

So IMHO the Canadians must come to reach anything close to those numbers.  Also, 2500 units.....given that there are plenty of ski condos available throughout northern New England, are there really 2500 buyers without one right now?  to reach even 50% of that goal a goodly number of units would hit the market on other mountains and I just don't see that happening with the Ski 93 crowd.  

Leaving the Boston area at 6pm and getting to your place at 9:30-10:15pm is tolerable, especially with families.  Stretch that to 11pm+ every weekend and that is pushing it.

Let's be clear here, the typical Ski family is ripping up 93 in their Yukon XL rocking their Thule, two kids watching some awful repetitive cartoon on the built in backseat entertainment system while the trophy wife (looking stunning in her $3000 worth of gear) is playing with her iPad and the dude is driving 85mph with a screaming headache just trying to get to his scotch at the end of the line.  The farther away that scotch is from home......the less frequent they make that run......

But what do I know.....


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 4, 2015)

Isn't it fractional ownership for sale?  That might help some.  

The Canadian dollar is a big problem, though.  


.


----------



## doublediamond (Mar 4, 2015)

For a 100-day share:  $100,000 for one bedroom and $240,000 for two bedroom suites in Dix or Hampshire Houses.  10% down on agreement to purchase; refundable $1,200 deposit in escrow to reserve your share.  You can trade to family and you get paid if you don't use it as well as a cut on the remaining 65 days.  Sounds steep.


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## Smellytele (Mar 4, 2015)

doublediamond said:


> For a 100-day share:  $100,000 for one bedroom and $240,000 for two bedroom suites in Dix or Hampshire Houses.  10% down on agreement to purchase; refundable $1,200 deposit in escrow to reserve your share.  You can trade to family and you get paid if you don't use it as well as a cut on the remaining 65 days.  Sounds steep.



bedroom is the cheapest room in a house and they are charging 140,000 for 1???


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## Jully (Mar 4, 2015)

That's incredibly steep jeez


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## River19 (Mar 4, 2015)

Ha......I can build an entire log cabin for less than that including land.......man is the ski 93 crowd that gullible?

Plus when I think of ski condos, honestly, I think the Conway area is about the lowest risk.....yes it is crowded, but with Cranmore, Wildcat, Attitash/Bear, Bretton etc. all within an easy ride plus plenty of eating and boozing opportunities, investing in a condo there can make sense.  If the Balsams have "meh" conditions.......you are in for a ride for an alternative, right?


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## deadheadskier (Mar 4, 2015)

I wouldn't call N. Conway crowded (at least the slopes) in comparison to the resorts in the 93 corridor.


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## gmcunni (Mar 4, 2015)

wow, that is remote...


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## River19 (Mar 4, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I wouldn't call N. Conway crowded (at least the slopes) in comparison to the resorts in the 93 corridor.



Everywhere, but the slopes then......all the people I try and get away from are there....lol  Looks like MetroWest north....


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## thebigo (Mar 4, 2015)

drjeff said:


> And the modern version of "pulls a rabbit out his hat" is more like "hosts a bunch of decent $$ fundraisers for members of the legislative committee and/or speaker of the house... :smash:



This is NH, not NY or CT,  the speaker is one of 400 reps, elected by their 3000 or fewer constituents, getting paid $100 per year for their services.


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## St. Bear (Mar 4, 2015)

thebigo said:


> This is NH, not NY or CT,  the speaker is one of 400 reps, elected by their 3000 or fewer constituents, getting paid $100 per year for their services.



$200 a year. 
Plus free tolls!


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 4, 2015)

Yikes, those prices are expensive!!!!!


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## WWF-VT (Mar 5, 2015)

gmcunni said:


> must be pissing off the K crowd.



The proposed expansion will probably take about 20 years and the resort will have likely gone through several owners and/or gone bankrupt a few times during the process


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## skiMEbike (Mar 5, 2015)

Already running into issues....
http://www.seacoastonline.com/article/20150304/NEWS/150309602/101020/NEWS


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## Smellytele (Mar 5, 2015)

If he was thinking the state was just going to say yes on his findings and not study it themselves I think he is heading for a whole lot of trouble and should take his whiskey home.


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## River19 (Mar 5, 2015)

If the whole thing is predicated on the state funding, then I think it is a very sketchy plan.  If it was a compelling and realistic story, private money would find them.


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## EPB (Mar 5, 2015)

River19 said:


> If the whole thing is predicated on the state funding, then I think it is a very sketchy plan.  If it was a compelling and realistic story, private money would find them.



The message to me is pretty clear. Equity investors won't do the deal without some leverage and private lenders won't make the plunge without a viable business or marketable assets to sell if the plan goes belly up. Right now lenders have neither.


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## octopus (Mar 7, 2015)

*balsam expansion?*

http://ski.curbed.com/archives/2015/03/balsams-ski-area-new-englands-largest.php


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## steamboat1 (Mar 7, 2015)

There is already a discussion going on about it in this thread.

http://forums.alpinezone.com/showth...t-teams-up-with-ski-industry-legend-Les-Otten


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## octopus (Mar 7, 2015)

ok .  you have more mountains than me, but less time on this forum?


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## canobie#1 (Mar 7, 2015)

^What?


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## wa-loaf (Mar 7, 2015)

octopus said:


> ok .  you have more mountains than me, but less time on this forum?



Based on posts, not time.


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## machski (Mar 7, 2015)

River19 said:


> Ha......I can build an entire log cabin for less than that including land.......man is the ski 93 crowd that gullible?
> 
> Plus when I think of ski condos, honestly, I think the Conway area is about the lowest risk.....yes it is crowded, but with Cranmore, Wildcat, Attitash/Bear, Bretton etc. all within an easy ride plus plenty of eating and boozing opportunities, investing in a condo there can make sense.  If the Balsams have "meh" conditions.......you are in for a ride for an alternative, right?



Sunday River is likely the closest to the Balsams and about an hours drive.


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## AmmergauerTele (Mar 8, 2015)

I think most people from New England are looking at this upside-down.  Most likely the target is Montreal, google map shows trip time of 2:35.  Not sure how long it takes to cross the border but got this off the web for the population of greater Montreal….

3,824,221
Greater Montreal is the maist populous metropolitan aurie in Quebec. As o 2009, Statistics Canada identifees Montreal's Census Metropolitan Aurie (CMA). The CMA is 4,258.31 square kilometres (1,644.14 sq mi) lairge an haes a population of 3,824,221 as o 2011.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 8, 2015)

The question is whether or not the Montreal market is enough.  Looking at Jay Peak, I would say that it's a vital segment, but that you need more.  The exchange rate doesn't help, either.


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## steamboat1 (Mar 8, 2015)

Plenty of Canadiens skiing in central VT. this past week, it was vacation week in Canada. Lot's of French being spoken on the lifts. The few I spoke with said they drove south to avoid the crowds. One couple did mention that is was more expensive because of the current exchange rate. Believe they said it's $1.27 now.


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## thetrailboss (Mar 8, 2015)

So are they funding this with EB-5 money? LBO's friends? Private capital? 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## thetrailboss (Mar 9, 2015)

NHPR reports on the project:

http://nhpr.org/post/hassan-says-state-needs-support-balsams-redevelopment


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## WWF-VT (Mar 11, 2015)

More on Skinet: *Can Balsams be Bigger than Killington?*

http://www.skinet.com/ski/article/can-balsams-be-bigger-killington


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## thetrailboss (Mar 11, 2015)

WWF-VT said:


> More on Skinet: *Can Balsams be Bigger than Killington?*
> 
> http://www.skinet.com/ski/article/can-balsams-be-bigger-killington



Very interesting. $48 mill from NH. Sounds like they have a concrete plan for this. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## River19 (Mar 12, 2015)

OK, so reading that, it sounds like "all systems go".......or am I missing something?  Didn't the state basically "deny" a required bond by sending it to "study" or whatever which basically means "yeah, we need to know more about this come back next year when you have better information".

So is it a "go" and they are just waiting for that all important water permit or are things till very much up in the air on the financing side?


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## Mapnut (Mar 12, 2015)

Honest Slogan for Balsams: "More sprawl than Killington! Less vertical."


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## machski (Mar 12, 2015)

River19 said:


> OK, so reading that, it sounds like "all systems go".......or am I missing something?  Didn't the state basically "deny" a required bond by sending it to "study" or whatever which basically means "yeah, we need to know more about this come back next year when you have better information".
> 
> So is it a "go" and they are just waiting for that all important water permit or are things till very much up in the air on the financing side?



That's Skinet for you.  The state money is anything but locked in.  The governor is pushing for it but the senate tabled it (and oh, BTW, NH has an exec council that can steer the governor).  Be interesting to see how it goes, especially where Hassan's predecessor blocked any expansion at Sunapee during his terms.


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## River19 (Mar 12, 2015)

machski said:


> That's Skinet for you.  The state money is anything but locked in.  The governor is pushing for it but the senate tabled it (and oh, BTW, NH has an exec council that can steer the governor).  Be interesting to see how it goes, especially where Hassan's predecessor blocked any expansion at Sunapee during his terms.



So it sounds like everyone should take that glowing article with a grain of salt and we're back to where we thought we were which is the Senate sayin "yeah, before we commit millions of taxpayer $, let's learn a lot more about this".  Which basically means if they plan to break ground on anything during the summer of 2015 they will be doing it with private money. 

Frankly, I wouldn't touch a shovel on that thing without that water permit either as having issues making snow is a game changer for most places.


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 12, 2015)

Mapnut said:


> Honest Slogan for Balsams: "More sprawl than Killington! Less vertical."



Sugarloaf has more skiable acres, and a greater vertical than Kmart-- but still a good plan to keep NYers in SVT.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 17, 2015)

http://www.unionleader.com/article/20150317/NEWS0621/150319092&template=mobileart


Passed a hurdle.  Looking like the State will back this.

Also interesting is the recent vote authorizing two casinos in the State.


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## St. Bear (Mar 18, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> Also interesting is the recent vote authorizing two casinos in the State.



I've been saying that that part of the state is perfect for a casino for years now.


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## Newpylong (Mar 18, 2015)

Tough call on the state funding. On one hand it's tough to dump money into something like that, but on the other hand, that area is so economically depressed it might be appropriate. I am learning towards supporting the expenditure, as long as all their ducks are in a row esp permits.


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## SIKSKIER (Mar 18, 2015)

St. Bear said:


> I've been saying that that part of the state is perfect for a casino for years now.



That would be a terrible place.Its in the middle of nowhere and trying to get people there from big population areas and pull them away from much closer options would be futile.


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## St. Bear (Mar 18, 2015)

SIKSKIER said:


> That would be a terrible place.Its in the middle of nowhere and trying to get people there from big population areas and pull them away from much closer options would be futile.



I imagine the state of CT had the same objections when they first considered building Foxwoods.


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## machski (Mar 18, 2015)

SIKSKIER said:


> That would be a terrible place.Its in the middle of nowhere and trying to get people there from big population areas and pull them away from much closer options would be futile.



I'd be careful, that is not necessarily true.  I have landed Gulfstreams at Berlin Airport in the past prior to the Balsams closing for folks going there.  The area has a draw and while it may be a hike, in the past it has pulled folks up to it.  If they do this right, it will pull even more.  Tremblant is not that easy to get to but has become the top Eastern Resort anyway.


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## Vortex (Mar 18, 2015)

machski said:


> I'd be careful, that is not necessarily true.  I have landed Gulfstreams at Berlin Airport in the past prior to the Balsams closing for folks going there.  The area has a draw and while it may be a hike, in the past it has pulled folks up to it.  If they do this right, it will pull even more.  Tremblant is not that easy to get to but has become the top Eastern Resort anyway.




This would be a true destination resort.  My guess is it would compete wth the Bretton woods, Mt Washington hotel group again.

The additionsal benefit  of water access and being very close to Canada, to me makes this look feasible.   I support it for the jobs it will create and bringing something back to the North Country.  It seems 4 wheelers are extremely popular in the region. There is a need for more.    Wmur, which we all get In Nh had a  few interviews yesterday with folks who have been effected by the lack of development in the North country.   Pretty strong cases presented from young and old resisdents.


----------



## EPB (Mar 18, 2015)

machski said:


> I'd be careful, that is not necessarily true.  I have landed Gulfstreams at Berlin Airport in the past prior to the Balsams closing for folks going there.  The area has a draw and while it may be a hike, in the past it has pulled folks up to it.  If they do this right, it will pull even more.  Tremblant is not that easy to get to but has become the top Eastern Resort anyway.



Tremblant is also only 1:30 to Montreal and 1:45 to Ottawa, which is very convenient and provides the possibility to gain a critical mass relatively easily. When it was being built up, there were no incumbent resorts like it either. 

The problem here is that Tremblant and now Jay peak provide cometition on the skiing/family resort front. Tremblant built a casino at the base already as I recall, and The Balsams would be left to fight over Canadian business with good existing options. The same goes for Americans that are okay making the trek to places like Jay/Tremblant. You can't overlook the international experience in Quebec with respect to American visitors either.


----------



## x10003q (Mar 18, 2015)

machski said:


> I'd be careful, that is not necessarily true.  I have landed Gulfstreams at Berlin Airport in the past prior to the Balsams closing for folks going there.  The area has a draw and while it may be a hike, in the past it has pulled folks up to it..



I am pretty sure those of us with access to Gulfstreams will not be among the market Otten needs to purchase 2500 housing units. I know when I have access to a Gulfstream it will be pointed west to the Rockies. The last time the Balsams was popular people traveled by train.



machski said:


> If they do this right, it will pull even more.  Tremblant is not that easy to get to but has become the top Eastern Resort anyway.



Maybe not that easy for those of us in the US but Tremblant is 80 miles north of Montreal (3.8 million metro population) and 95 miles from Ottawa (1.2million metro population). I do not see 5 million people within 100 miles of Balsams.


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## St. Bear (Mar 18, 2015)

You don't have to hit a grand slam with the ski experience for it to be a success.  You can play small ball with singles and doubles across many offerings.

How many people who live in ME/NH/VT go to Foxwoods/Mohegan Sun in the course of a year?  If you can get a portion of them to go to Balsams (for shows and whatnot even if casino doesn't go through), a portion of the Canadian market, and a smattering of people for the skiing/rafting/whatever other attractions, then you have a viable plan.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 18, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> http://www.unionleader.com/article/20150317/NEWS0621/150319092&template=mobileart
> 
> 
> Passed a hurdle.  Looking like the State will back this.
> ...



More coverage:

http://caledonianrecord.com/main.asp?SectionID=180&SubSectionID=778&ArticleID=127275


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## VTKilarney (Mar 18, 2015)

The casino market has become absolutely flooded, and will get even worse with Massachusetts casinos coming online.  Nonetheless, I am in favor of allowing a casino to be built on the property.  The key is to be realistic about that amount of revenue it will bring in, which is much less than it would have brought in ten or fifteen years ago.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 18, 2015)

Maybe if they allow a Casino, private funding will follow.


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 18, 2015)

x10003q said:


> Maybe not that easy for those of us in the US but Tremblant is 80 miles north of Montreal (3.8 million metro population) and 95 miles from Ottawa (1.2million metro population). I do not see 5 million people within 100 miles of Balsams.



While not much is within 100 miles of Dixville Notch, NYC has bus loads of people going to Tremblant and Sugarloaf all season long.  The trek to the Balsams would be shorter than both of those, and no passport required.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 18, 2015)

I think that the Balsams can shine if they create a true resort that is integrated with a ski area.  The best example would be the Mt. Washington Hotel - and even then the ski area is a shuttle bus ride away.  

In other words, make a resort that also has skiing.  Not a ski area with a nice hotel.

I've stayed at many of the "grand hotels" in the region, and as nice as they may be, I have never felt that they are compelling on their own as resort hotels.  The Kilington Grand is a good example.  Other than the outdoor pool, there ins't anything all that special about the Killington Grand.  It is definitely not somewhere my wife would want to stay while I went skiing for the day.


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 18, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I've stayed at many of the "grand hotels" in the region, and as nice as they may be, I have never felt that they are compelling on their own as resort hotels.  The Kilington Grand is a good example.  Other than the outdoor pool, there ins't anything all that special about the Killington Grand.  It is definitely not somewhere my wife would want to stay while I went skiing for the day.



Couldn't agree more on the "Grand" hotels built by ASC/Otten-- nothing at all special.  The Balsams needs to be on the scale of The Lodge at Stowe.  I was just there this past weekend, and kept on thinking the Over Easy Cabriolet reminded me of (part of) the Balsams plan.


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## x10003q (Mar 18, 2015)

ThinkSnow said:


> While not much is within 100 miles of Dixville Notch, NYC has bus loads of people going to Tremblant and Sugarloaf all season long.  The trek to the Balsams would be shorter than both of those, and no passport required.



There might be a few buses per weekend from NYC, but these people are not going to buy one of the 2500 units that are in the plan. They will be occasional visitors. The Balsams is around a 7 hour drive from NYC metro. This is not in the realm of reality for most weekend skiers who might be interested in purchasing real estate. You are asking people from the NYC Metro to drive by a boat load of awesome, established skiing that is much closer including all of Vermont, Gore, Whiteface, and much of NH, and even Sunday River.

One more reason to go to Canada - the Canadian dollar hit a 6 year low today against the US Dollar. One Canadian dollar buys 78.09 US cents or one US dollar buys C$1.2835. Canada is on sale for US residents.


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## River19 (Mar 18, 2015)

x10003q said:


> There might be a few buses per weekend from NYC, but these people are not going to buy one of the 2500 units that are in the plan. They will be occasional visitors. The Balsams is around a 7 hour drive from NYC metro. This is not in the realm of reality for most weekend skiers who might be interested in purchasing real estate. You are asking people from the NYC Metro to drive by a boat load of awesome, established skiing that is much closer including all of Vermont, Gore, Whiteface, and much of NH, and even Sunday River.
> 
> One more reason to go to Canada - the Canadian dollar hit a 6 year low today against the US Dollar. One Canadian dollar buys 78.09 US cents or one US dollar buys C$1.2835. Canada is on sale for US residents.



This is where my gut is as well.  I think even 1/10 of those 2500 units is going to be a hard sell.  Selling even 250 units outright is tough.


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## drjeff (Mar 18, 2015)

I think that we all need to remember that the proposed 2500 units is in basically a *30 YEAR* master build out plan.  So it's not like all 2500 units would be going up starting as soon as funding could be secured.

Also like many master plans, they are subject to change over time - heck look at the master plan that Killington had submitted for the Pico interconnect and concurrent Snowshed/Ramshead upto KBL village build...  If that even happens, I highly doubt that it would resemble what the original master plan had it looking like.  Master plans and finished products are often 2 very different things when you're talking about what are generally intended to be recreation use 2nd (or more) properties


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 19, 2015)

x10003q said:


> There might be a few buses per weekend from NYC, but these people are not going to buy one of the 2500 units that are in the plan. They will be occasional visitors. The Balsams is around a 7 hour drive from NYC metro. This is not in the realm of reality for most weekend skiers who might be interested in purchasing real estate. You are asking people from the NYC Metro to drive by a boat load of awesome, established skiing that is much closer including all of Vermont, Gore, Whiteface, and much of NH, and even Sunday River.
> 
> One more reason to go to Canada - the Canadian dollar hit a 6 year low today against the US Dollar. One Canadian dollar buys 78.09 US cents or one US dollar buys C$1.2835. Canada is on sale for US residents.



Wasn't talking about property ownership, just weekend/week visitors.  If the quality of the resort is on par with The Lodge at Stowe, a long drive past smaller older areas would be justified.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 19, 2015)

So who would this compete against the most?  Stowe?  Sunday River?  Jay?  Burke?


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## EPB (Mar 19, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> So who would this compete against the most?  Stowe?  Sunday River?  Jay?  Burke?



Stowe, Jay, Mount Washington Hotel,  Tremblant and Sugarloaf for sure. Depending on how expensive it will be (and whether or not you fly in), western areas could probably be in play too.


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## machski (Mar 19, 2015)

You all are missing part of the Apple here.  This region was known long before for the summer and fall season draw long before it was a ski draw.  If you have never been to Dixville notch, make the drive just for the natural beauty.  Then post back on your thoughts of whether this could work or not.


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## Newpylong (Mar 19, 2015)

It is beautiful.


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## EPB (Mar 19, 2015)

machski said:


> You all are missing part of the Apple here.  This region was known long before for the summer and fall season draw long before it was a ski draw.  If you have never been to Dixville notch, make the drive just for the natural beauty.  Then post back on your thoughts of whether this could work or not.



I visited about 15 years ago my one and only time in the summer. Beautiful place. 

All of the little-to-do-relative-to-closer-to-population-center concerns exist all year though. The place can be a gem again, hopefully, but it's shortcomings are going to take a lot of money to resolve and I really question if there's a critical mass of demand out there. 

As much as I hate to see NH have to step in, this build out probably has to be pretty massive to get the requisite amount of activities needed to attract people up/out there. That's my biggest concern - not how fancy it is, but that there will be enough people to go to sustain all of the businesses necessary to provide vacationers with options of things to do and places to eat up there, etc. Being stuck at the hotel for a week with nowhere else to go doesn't seem worth it to me.


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## ThinkSnow (Mar 19, 2015)

machski said:


> You all are missing part of the Apple here.  This region was known long before for the summer and fall season draw long before it was a ski draw.  If you have never been to Dixville notch, make the drive just for the natural beauty.  Then post back on your thoughts of whether this could work or not.



I don't think the beauty aspect has been overlooked, this thread was started to discuss the ski area expansion with Les Otten, so that's what its been centered on.


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## machski (Mar 19, 2015)

ThinkSnow said:


> I don't think the beauty aspect has been overlooked, this thread was started to discuss the ski area expansion with Les Otten, so that's what its been centered on.



That's fine, then as ski areas go, he built SR up from a molehill.  A molehill that at the time SKI felt had no growth potential.  Now the Balsams is a bit more of a hike, but there are some examples.  Sun Valley, while a historical ski area and resort, is tough to get to, does not get a lot of snow and while the skiing is nice with good vertical, is not overly challenging or large.  Yet it continues to thrive based on its luxury image.  The Balsams already has a connection to historic luxury and while any new offering will have to prove itself as such, I think this can succeed and that their is a market for a more secluded, luxury resort offering in the NE.


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## x10003q (Mar 19, 2015)

eastern powder baby said:


> Stowe, Jay, Mount Washington Hotel,  Tremblant and Sugarloaf for sure. Depending on how expensive it will be (and whether or not you fly in), western areas could probably be in play too.



Nobody is going to be flying in to ski Balsams and there is no way an Eastern skier is going to consider Balsams a choice vs skiing out west unless there is no snow in a box that surrounds Colorado to Tahoe to Alaska to Calgary.



machski said:


> That's fine, then as ski areas go, he built SR up from a molehill.  A molehill that at the time SKI felt had no growth potential.  Now the Balsams is a bit more of a hike, but there are some examples.  Sun Valley, while a historical ski area and resort, is tough to get to, does not get a lot of snow and while the skiing is nice with good vertical, is not overly challenging or large.  Yet it continues to thrive based on its luxury image.  The Balsams already has a connection to historic luxury and while any new offering will have to prove itself as such, I think this can succeed and that their is a market for a more secluded, luxury resort offering in the NE.



The Balsams was popular when people took trains and didn't have air conditioning in there homes. Those days are over. Balsams will be a purely a 'drive to' resort. Comparing The Balsams with Sun Valley is not realistic. Sun Valley is a destination resort with a real town and has been since the 1930s. It is a 1 hour flight from Salt Lake City and has direct flights from many other major US cities. 

Since you classify Sun Valley skiing as not overly challenging or large - how do you classify Balsams?:wink:

 The problem here is The Balsams is no longer what it might have been decades ago. It will never recapture the luxury market. Its best bet will be to convince a portion of the Sunday River population to switch and market itself heavily to Canadians. Even then there will not be enough visitors to sustain the loans and proposed infrastructure. The location is just too remote.


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## EPB (Mar 19, 2015)

x10003q said:


> Nobody is going to be flying in to ski Balsams and there is no way an Eastern skier is going to consider Balsams a choice vs skiing out west unless there is no snow in a box that surrounds Colorado to Tahoe to Alaska to Calgary.



New Yorkers could fly there like they do to Tremblant - if the place actually got built out like they want. I ran into a surprising number of people who flew into Tremblant from NYC when I was up there last about 7-8 years ago. I'd never do it. Sounds like you never would either, but there are people that would for the right resort experience - and I had to see it myself to be convinced, but it's true.


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## machski (Mar 20, 2015)

eastern powder baby said:


> New Yorkers could fly there like they do to Tremblant - if the place actually got built out like they want. I ran into a surprising number of people who flew into Tremblant from NYC when I was up there last about 7-8 years ago. I'd never do it. Sounds like you never would either, but there are people that would for the right resort experience - and I had to see it myself to be convinced, but it's true.



Bingo, if this is done right, Balsams will appeal to a clientel that most AZ'ers including myself, would likely not consider.  I think if this venture is to succeed, it will have to draw across all seasons, not just the ski season.  But if they build the ski area to anything close to full build plans, I don't think any of us can judge Balsams terrain offerings currently.  It will be a wait and see.  While some on this board dis SR's terrain, I think many never thought it had what it would take to become a major draw in New England.  There are always risks with these types of projects, this has a better shot than many due to the fact of a needed economic anchor in the far North of NH and state's desire to work with them in an effort to make that happen.  Will it work?  It is a risk, but I bet there are some that will be drawn to it.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 20, 2015)

If AZ'ers were accurate Bretton Woods and Okemo would have closed a long time ago.


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## x10003q (Mar 20, 2015)

eastern powder baby said:


> New Yorkers could fly there like they do to Tremblant - if the place actually got built out like they want. I ran into a surprising number of people who flew into Tremblant from NYC when I was up there last about 7-8 years ago. I'd never do it. Sounds like you never would either, but there are people that would for the right resort experience - and I had to see it myself to be convinced, but it's true.



You cannot compare flying from NYC to Montreal vs NYC to Berlin, NH. There are regular flights on multiple carriers every day of the year between 2 huge metro areas that have nothing to do with skiing. Flights into Berlin, NH, will only be about skiing. There are no commercial flights that I can see into Berlin today, only general aviation. Even if you added 2 flights of 50 people per week (which is a major stretch), that's really not going to have any impact on filling beds and restaurants at The Balsams.

Asking NH to pony up the funds for a speculative real estate venture because the area needs jobs is a bad move. Need has no bearing on who is going to visit. I feel bad for people who are struggling in these areas. There is a similar situation in Tupper Lake, NY. These places are fading because of their locations. The ease of access is a big part of the decision we make in choosing an area. Throwing public money at them will not move them closer to population centers.


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## VTKilarney (Mar 20, 2015)

Didn't Continental once offer non-stop flights from EWR to YTM (Mont Tremblant)?  If they did, I am sure it was a very small fraction of the number of skiers flying from New York to points west.


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## machski (Mar 20, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> Didn't Continental once offer non-stop flights from EWR to YTM (Mont Tremblant)?  If they did, I am sure it was a very small fraction of the number of skiers flying from New York to points west.



Yes, and on the GA side, the local FBO is very swank, as nice if not nicer than Aspen's.


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## Jully (Mar 26, 2015)

http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=246

The bill passed the senate. Goes to the house now, but Otten apparently says that he wants $43 million in public funding now.

Projected phase 1 opening is 2016/2017 season.


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## ThinkSnow (Apr 16, 2015)

http://nhpr.org/post/company-says-t...nowmaking-would-hurt-hydroelectric-facilities

More news, not very promising unfortunately.


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## Mapnut (Apr 16, 2015)

The letter says that they would accept the water withdrawals as long as Dixville negotiates an agreement with them about either timing the withdrawals or compensating them for lost revenue. The fellow who comments that the water's going to flow back into the river anyway, doesn't allow for part of the ski area draining to the west (out of the Androscoggin basin), or that the runoff would occur in high-flow season when the hydro plants are likely to be spilling water. 

I was looking at the area on Google Earth and saw that some of the slopes in the southeast part of the proposed ski area have huge clearcuts. I wonder how a ski area would work that into its trail plan. Unfortunately the largest clearcut has southern exposure.


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## ThinkSnow (Apr 16, 2015)

The property is large enough, they should just create another Lake Gloriette, which  is a man made lake that draws water down from higher elevations.  Created when the resort was built.


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## machski (Apr 16, 2015)

We're talking about Les Otten here.  After all, he is the one who expanded snowmaking at Sugarbush without passing off all the environmental types and drawing off the Mad River.  This is not a big hurdle to clear IMHO.


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## ThinkSnow (Apr 17, 2015)

machski said:


> We're talking about Les Otten here.  After all, he is the one who expanded snowmaking at Sugarbush without passing off all the environmental types and drawing off the Mad River.  This is not a big hurdle to clear IMHO.



When Otten expanded the snowmaking at Sugarbush, I don't believe he was asking the state for $25 million to pay for it, nor did/does the Mad River power any hydroelectric dams.  I really hope you are correct, but this could look bad in the eyes of the decision makers.


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## mbedle (Apr 17, 2015)

I've got a couple of issues with the letter sent by Brookfield. They seem to contradict themselves in the letter. In the first paragraph they state that the withdrawal "would adversely affect" and the second paragraph they state that the withdrawal is "projected to potentially displace"... In addition, there is no documentation provided to support their claim that the withdrawal would have a negative impact on the 15 plants they operate. Understanding that this is just a comment letter sent to the NHDES, I would not expect them to include any contingencies within the permit until GLHA can document the facts they have stated. 

Plus, I'm not sure that during the initial build out of the resort they are going to need the full 2.94 MCF of water for snow making. Thats 21,991,000 million gallons a day. To put that in perspective, Stowe uses approximately 230,000,000 gallons per season for snowmaking. With that said, a valid option would be to cut the withdrawal back to something a little more reasonable.


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## AdironRider (Apr 17, 2015)

ThinkSnow said:


> When Otten expanded the snowmaking at Sugarbush, I don't believe he was asking the state for $25 million to pay for it, nor did/does the Mad River power any hydroelectric dams.  I really hope you are correct, but this could look bad in the eyes of the decision makers.



The MRV is also filled with plenty of rich transplants and retirees looking for craft beard oil and heirloom tomatoes. 

Northern NH on the other hand is hurting pretty hard.

So in terms of government funding assistance, its not really a direct comparison to compare a NELSAP area in one of the most economically challenged areas of New England, with Mascara Mountain.


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## Newpylong (Apr 17, 2015)

ThinkSnow said:


> When Otten expanded the snowmaking at Sugarbush, I don't believe he was asking the state for $25 million to pay for it, nor did/does the Mad River power any hydroelectric dams.  I really hope you are correct, but this could look bad in the eyes of the decision makers.



There is a hydro dam less than 15 miles from Sugarbush South in Moretown on the Mad River.

How about building a more local snowmaking reservoir to be back filled from the Androscoggin when it is amicable to the Hydro co?


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## machski (Apr 18, 2015)

Newpylong said:


> There is a hydro dam less than 15 miles from Sugarbush South in Moretown on the Mad River.
> 
> How about building a more local snowmaking reservoir to be back filled from the Androscoggin when it is amicable to the Hydro co?



Kind of my point and exactly what Otten did at Sugarbush.  The Mad River was not a big issue with the Hydro, it was an environmental issue with river min flow levels and the fish.


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## doublediamond (Apr 18, 2015)

mbedle said:


> Plus, I'm not sure that during the initial build out of the resort they are going to need the full 2.94 MCF of water for snow making. Thats 21,991,000 million gallons a day. To put that in perspective, Stowe uses approximately 230,000,000 gallons per season for snowmaking. With that said, a valid option would be to cut the withdrawal back to something a little more reasonable.



They may never need 15,300 gpm to make snow. It's not about what they need on a day-in-day-out basis.  You want to be able to draw at a high capacity so that you only need to take water from the river at it's high flows.

And you want to plan for the future.  For example, Sunday River is permitted to take 50,000 gpm from the Sunday River.  Their current capacity from the river is 8,100 gpm and 9,000 gpm up the mountain.  According to their website, their medium-term plans are to double their pumping capacity.  Think about how much faster you can open or recover with an unlimited supply of water both temporal and season long.

2.94 MCF per 24 hrs is a drop in the bucket.  That equates to 34.0 cfs (or 15,300 gpm).  The Androscoggin at Errol has 111 years of data.  The day with the minimum median flow is November 3.  That flow? 1540 cfs.

Generally, environmentalists have used 1.0 or 1.5 cfs per sq. mi. as a minimum flow requirement for a river.  2,940,000 cubic ft. over 24 hrs is 34.0 cfs.  If we use 1.0, that means the flow would have to be 1080 cfs for the Balsams to draw at full power.  That can be done every day unless we're in a major drought.  A minimum of 1.5 would mean the Balsams can draw at full power at 1603 cfs.  In a median year, that is every day November 6 and on.

The Androscoggin is huge.  There is plenty of water to go around.


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## freeski (Apr 19, 2015)

I agree the Androscoggin is a huge river. I hope the hydro guys just want to make their interests known. As mentioned, there will be environmental restrictions which will also protect the dams. The hydro interests shouldn't get a dime from the ski area and I hope they don't try to tie up a project northern NH desperately needs with red tape.


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## ThinkSnow (Apr 20, 2015)

freeski said:


> I agree the Androscoggin is a huge river. I hope the hydro guys just want to make their interests known. As mentioned, there will be environmental restrictions which will also protect the dams. The hydro interests shouldn't get a dime from the ski area and I hope they don't try to tie up a project northern NH desperately needs with red tape.



+1


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## billski (Apr 20, 2015)

"Balsams Grand Resort teams up with ski industry legend "  ..... TO GO DOWN IN FLAMES!


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## thetrailboss (Apr 20, 2015)

ThinkSnow said:


> When Otten expanded the snowmaking at Sugarbush, I don't believe he was asking the state for $25 million to pay for it, nor did/does the Mad River power any hydroelectric dams.  I really hope you are correct, but this could look bad in the eyes of the decision makers.



There is at least one hydroelectric dam on the Mad River. It's right on Route 100B between Waterbury and Moretown. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## ThinkSnow (Apr 21, 2015)

You are correct, just past the Ward swimming hole.  That far up I always think the dam is on the Winooski River.  Nevertheless, it is still only one dam.


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## ThinkSnow (Apr 22, 2015)

More news:

http://www.vnews.com/news/state/region/16606519-95/nh-house-panel-eyes-bill-for-balsams-project


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## from_the_NEK (May 7, 2015)

NH legislature takes a step toward getting state money easier for the Balsams....

http://caledonianrecord.com/main.asp?SectionID=180&SubSectionID=778&ArticleID=130075


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## Smellytele (May 7, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> NH legislature takes a step toward getting state money easier for the Balsams....
> 
> http://caledonianrecord.com/main.asp?SectionID=180&SubSectionID=778&ArticleID=130075



I know you know that it isn't State money


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## doublediamond (May 7, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> NH legislature takes a step toward getting state money easier for the Balsams....
> 
> http://caledonianrecord.com/main.asp?SectionID=180&SubSectionID=778&ArticleID=130075



It's just backed by the state as in if The Balsams defaults, the state is on the hook.  

The most notable failed state-backed bond would be that of Schilling's computer game company in RI.


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## St. Bear (May 22, 2015)

http://www.snocountry.com/en/news/e...-law-making-balsams-redevelopment-a-reality-1


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## Smellytele (May 22, 2015)

St. Bear said:


> http://www.snocountry.com/en/news/e...-law-making-balsams-redevelopment-a-reality-1



Here we go...


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## SIKSKIER (May 22, 2015)

Whats up with this statement though.

The plan also includes expanding The Balsams Wilderness Ski Area into the largest and most technically advanced ski resort on the East Coast.What does this mean?

 With a skiing base camp at 2,350 feet above sea level, in a true alpine climate zone, The Balsams is known to receive among the highest annual snow totals of any ski resort in the Northeast.Really?


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## dlague (May 22, 2015)

SIKSKIER said:


> Whats up with this statement though.
> 
> The plan also includes expanding The Balsams Wilderness Ski Area into the largest and most technically advanced ski resort on the East Coast.What does this mean?
> 
> With a skiing base camp at 2,350 feet above sea level, in a true alpine climate zone, The Balsams is known to receive among the highest annual snow totals of any ski resort in the Northeast.Really?



Now that they have the dollars, you need to sell the idea/vision.  Faster better lifts, nicer lodges, better and bigger snow making ..... who knows!  Leaves it open for speculation.


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## thetrailboss (May 22, 2015)

Another article on the deal....

http://caledonianrecord.com/main.asp?SectionID=180&SubSectionID=778&ArticleID=131003


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## steamboat1 (May 22, 2015)

SIKSKIER said:


> With a skiing base camp at 2,350 feet above sea level, in a true alpine climate zone, The Balsams is known to receive among the highest annual snow totals of any ski resort in the Northeast.Really?


225" isn't bad.


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## ScottySkis (May 23, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> 225" isn't bad.



More then the Catskills. 25 inch average less then mid Vermont.+1


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## AdironRider (May 23, 2015)

If you have actually been there, you would know its better overall climate for skiing than most of VT. 

I also have a lot more faith in the 225" snowfall number up there, than Killington claiming 250" down there. There has been a lot less marketing creep of snowfall totals in Colebrook.....


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## River19 (May 23, 2015)

I agree, that 225" is closer to the truth than 250" claimed elsewhere, at least year after year.  If you want to know where heavy snowfall exists, follow where the snowmobiles go......Stowe area and central VT ain't exactly a hot spot compared to Crawford Notch, Colebrook and  Pittsburgh NH.


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## steamboat1 (May 23, 2015)

River19 said:


> I agree, that 225" is closer to the truth than 250" claimed elsewhere, at least year after year.  If you want to know where heavy snowfall exists, follow where the snowmobiles go......Stowe area and central VT ain't exactly a hot spot compared to Crawford Notch, Colebrook and  Pittsburgh NH.



Definitely snowmobile country up there. It's almost as popular as the Rangeley, ME area. Pull into any hotel/motel mid-winter & the parking lots will be full with sleds not skis.


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## Tin Woodsman (May 23, 2015)

River19 said:


> I agree, that 225" is closer to the truth than 250" claimed elsewhere, at least year after year.  If you want to know where heavy snowfall exists, follow where the snowmobiles go......Stowe area and central VT ain't exactly a hot spot compared to Crawford Notch, Colebrook and  Pittsburgh NH.



Yeah - this overstates the case somewhat.  The Green Mtn spine from Killington northward to Jay receives more snow than anywhere else in the NE, and there really isn't an argument otherwise.  This is particularly the case for the portion of same north of I-89 which receives 250-300" per year or more.  The only place that consistently approaches it might be the upper reaches of the Presidentials.  

Does Dixville Notch area receive a lot of snow?  Absolutely.  But it's important to note that the topography in the area lends itself much better to snowmobiling than that of the Green Mtn spine.  If you go 3-4 miles in either direction from the apex of the Green Mtn spine, the snowfall drops dramatically with the change in elevation from 4000' down to the 700' range in town.  Near Balsams, the land is consistently in the 1500-2500' range (with higher peaks up to 3500' dotted throughout), so average snowfall on the flatter terrain where you would snowmobile is naturally boosted by that difference.  Any claims that the Balsams ski resort will receive more snow than the northern VT mountains are, to be charitable, uninformed.


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## Newpylong (May 23, 2015)

The claim was that the Balsams receives the amount of snow that they state more consistently than it's neighbors in Vermont.


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## machski (May 24, 2015)

True.  If you claim Killington averages 250", if I recall correctly, the have not gotten that in at least 5 seasons there.  As for the most modern, well that won't be hard since almost every lift will be brand new as will the snowmaking system, etc.


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## ThinkSnow (May 26, 2015)

I just hiked the Sanguinary Ridge trail in Dixville Notch on May 16, and there were still occasional pockets of snow to be found in the notch.


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## River19 (May 26, 2015)

Killington ave for 10 years is about 225" on the dot, but that is bolstered by some 280+ years from 7-10 years ago.  The last few years have been 187,196,208,152,263 (2011).

Not getting in a snow measuring battle, just throwing that out there, that it appears that any marketing piece claiming 250" per year was created by fishermen.....with selective memories.


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## St. Bear (May 26, 2015)

It's been stated in this thread before, but the Balsams will have 2 major factors working in it's favor.  High latitude and low skier density for superior snow preservation.  They'll be spared of many of the freeze/thaws that are so common in NE, and even if they approach 50% of their proposed build-out, you'll likely have powder stashes that will never get skied during the season.

None of that is as marketable as a snowfall number though, so you won't hear about it outside these forums.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 24, 2015)

http://m.wmur.com/special-reports/developer-details-plan-for-balsams-renovation/33732084


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## mbedle (Jun 24, 2015)

Just another view of the proposed layout.


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## Newpylong (Jun 24, 2015)

Good to see the AMC not completely opposed. I am sure they can create local retention ponds that are filled as needed.


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## dlague (Jun 24, 2015)

mbedle said:


> Just another view of the proposed layout. View attachment 17095



Looks like there will be several south facing areas?


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## mbedle (Jun 24, 2015)

Yeah, a couple with some of them having their steepest terrain. Not sure if that matters to much, look at places like Stowe and Bromley, they seem to handle it pretty well. If this happens, its going to make some very rich land owners along route 26!


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## VTKilarney (Jun 24, 2015)

And they are much further north than Bromley.


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## Newpylong (Jun 25, 2015)

Aside from the goofy Sunday River style Otten lifts some of those runs look pretty sweet, though I am sure highly preliminary.

To me the possibility of the first full scale build out in a long time in NE is exciting.


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## ThinkSnow (Jun 30, 2015)

Sorry, tried to attach image but not having any luck


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## slatham (Jun 30, 2015)

Sorry, but my gut reaction to seeing that proposal is its fantasy land. But even if they get to 50% it will be major.


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## ss20 (Jun 30, 2015)

From March 2, 2014



ss20 said:


> This is a fake article, right? :lol:
> 
> I'd be surprised if he even get's the existing area back open.



I hold my position.  No way this can be built.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 30, 2015)

The state has backed the project financially.  It may not reach "biggest in the east" status, but at this point I wouldn't bet against the place reopening


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## Edd (Jun 30, 2015)

Yeah, I'm less skeptical than I was initially. They appear committed. It'll be very interesting to see what happens. 

Talking with friends this winter, there were thoughts of opening a business in the area. Premature, at this juncture, but, if this goes as planned, there will be tempting opportunities.


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## mbedle (Jun 30, 2015)

Ski shop on Route 26 - Perfect!


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## Tin (Jun 30, 2015)

At this point I believe it is not a matter of "if" but when and how big.


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## from_the_NEK (Jun 30, 2015)

The top of peak C is going to be a busy place. Three lifts unloading in a rather small area, serving ~20 trails.


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## from_the_NEK (Jun 30, 2015)

Who's in on buying up some of the clear cut land on the other side of the valley and building some mountainside chalets that have a great view of the new ski area and Mt Washington?

(I actually have no idea if the land is for sale)


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## Edd (Jun 30, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> Who's in on buying up some of the clear cut land on the other side of the valley and building some mountainside chalets that have a great view of the new ski area and Mt Washington?
> 
> (I actually have no idea if the land is for sale)



I mean, that's one of the moves, right?  Those that have the capital to risk and the will to do it. No doubt quite a few well funded folks are eyeballing the area. Realistically, there are better ways to make money, but if you're into the ski country lifestyle....


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## steamboat1 (Jun 30, 2015)

What no plans for zip lines, rope mazes or a mountain coaster yet?

How short sighted.


----------



## ss20 (Jun 30, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> What no plans for zip lines, rope mazes or a mountain coaster yet?
> 
> How short sighted.



Not yet.  They should be jealous of that Vermont place further south that has all those cool things.  Heard it really made the resort a boom town in the summer months.  Who needs to invest in the on-mountain winter product when you have zip lines!


----------



## steamboat1 (Jun 30, 2015)

ss20 said:


> Not yet.  They should be jealous of that Vermont place further south that has all those cool things.  Heard it really made the resort a boom town in the summer months.  Who needs to invest in the on-mountain winter product when you have zip lines!


Yep, no investment.

Just that silly summer stuff.


----------



## AdironRider (Jul 1, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> What no plans for zip lines, rope mazes or a mountain coaster yet?
> 
> How short sighted.



I do feel that Les seems to be going a bit more high end than the Bromleys and Cranmores of the world. 

While I don't see 100% buildout of trails, I'd put my money on a reopen, with 1-3 of those trail pods coming to fruition, but not like all 7 of them.


----------



## ThinkSnow (Jul 1, 2015)

AdironRider said:


> I do feel that Les seems to be going a bit more high end than the Bromleys and Cranmores of the world.
> 
> While I don't see 100% buildout of trails, I'd put my money on a reopen, with 1-3 of those trail pods coming to fruition, but not like all 7 of them.



Yes, lets hope we don't see another "Grand Summit Hotel" (ASC era slopeside motel), but something more along the line of Stowe's Mountain Lodge.


----------



## machski (Jul 2, 2015)

I'm pretty sure Les knows where he needs to be in terms of high end building on this project.  He has not been a stranger to SR since the demise of ASC and he knows that more luxurious accommodations could have been beneficial here.  Given the distance, The Balsams had to hit the right notes to attract patrons past all the other resorts.

Another point to consider here.  Assume Balsams cranks up and wants to put in 4 or 5 new lifts next summer.  Any other resorts wanting new lifts for 2016-2017 better get their orders in stat!!!


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 2, 2015)

4-5 lifts typically translates to 20-30 trails with it.  No way that happens in one summer.  

2 tops might happen and I'm sure the speed of ski development will be dictated by the speed of real estate sales.


----------



## Newpylong (Jul 3, 2015)

He did 4 new and 2 relos at SB in one year if he did it before he may try it again lol.


----------



## deadheadskier (Jul 3, 2015)

Very true.  I believe Okemo did 3 one year back in the day.  Northeast triple, blackridge triple and one of the base quads.  

In both those cases the trail network was already in place.  

That's why I say the idea of 4-5 new lifts in a place like the Balsams is unreasonable


----------



## ss20 (Jul 31, 2015)

Construction pushed back till "later in fall" http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=294

Also of interest 





> Dixville Capital, LLC, led by developer Les Otten, applied for the permit with the New Hampshire Department of Environmental Services on December 17, 2014. The Water Quality Certification was granted on July 28, 2015, allowing for withdrawal related to fire suppression, as well as seasonal withdrawal for snowmaking between October 15 and March 15.



http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=296
So in case anyone thought we would see Otten-esque snowmaking practices (ie, October 1st opening) that isn't happening.  A real shame with the bitter climate up there.


----------



## steamboat1 (Aug 1, 2015)

Not bitter at all. Have you ever been there?


----------



## mbedle (Aug 1, 2015)

I would think that they have some onsite water source that could be used early season if they even plan on doing something prior to October 15th.


----------



## dlague (Aug 1, 2015)

ss20 said:


> So in case anyone thought we would see Otten-esque snowmaking practices (ie, October 1st opening) that isn't happening.  A real shame with the bitter climate up there.



October 1st while it is possible to blow snow on a trail if there is a cold stretch does not make sense.  I know it has been done in NE a few times but staying open is impossible even up there.  I am not a big fan of trails that are open too early.  While I will ski them if they are most of these trails develop an ice base due to thaws and rain that get scrapped of easy.


----------



## steamboat1 (Aug 1, 2015)

ThinkSnow said:


> Yes, lets hope we don't see another "Grand Summit Hotel" (ASC era slopeside motel), but something more along the line of Stowe's Mountain Lodge.


Wait, don't they already have a luxurious hotel? Wasn't the whole idea of purchasing the property in the beginning to reopen that hotel?


----------



## machski (Aug 2, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> 4-5 lifts typically translates to 20-30 trails with it.  No way that happens in one summer.
> 
> 2 tops might happen and I'm sure the speed of ski development will be dictated by the speed of real estate sales.



Ever heard of Sochi?  I think Les also did a huge install in one season at The Canyons (well, west side of Park City now) and only some of that terrain was already cut.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 2, 2015)

I'm not sure I'd draw a parallel between Northern NH and Putinland.


----------



## MadMadWorld (Aug 2, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm not sure I'd draw a parallel between Northern NH and Putinland.



Having Olympic monies and government backing sure does help.


----------



## ss20 (Aug 2, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm not sure I'd draw a parallel between Northern NH and Putinland.



Yeah... in Russia all that Putin has to do is point a finger and it will be there.  In New England once a ski resort leader brings an expansion plan to the table there's a 5-10 year waiting period lol.  Looking at you Killington-Pico Interconnect, West Bowl (Jay), South Peak (Loon, proposed since the 80s), and Green peak (Waterville).


----------



## Newpylong (Aug 3, 2015)

I am just hoping he is not allowed to design the trail and lift systems.


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## ss20 (Aug 3, 2015)

Newpylong said:


> I am just hoping he is not allowed to design the trail and lift systems.



Yeah.  I've been lurking in the Sugarbush thread, and apparently he wanted to widen Castlerock and put in a HSQ uke:

Was the great slaughtering of the Canyon at Killington during his reign?  I know the "western bowl style" Oz pod at Sunday River was a failure... epically.


----------



## Newpylong (Aug 3, 2015)

Everything he has touched has been controversial from a design perspective. Lift choices, locations, trail layouts.


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## steamboat1 (Aug 3, 2015)

ss20 said:


> Was the great slaughtering of the Canyon at Killington during his reign?  I know the "western bowl style" Oz pod at Sunday River was a failure... epically.


Pretty sure the Canyon & Superstar trail pod butchering was done under  Prez. Smith.


----------



## Puck it (Aug 3, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Pretty sure the Canyon & Superstar trail pod butchering was done under  Prez. Smith.


  I think it was the 1980's to blame for the wide trails not just ASC.  Jay cut Can Am and hyped it then.


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## machski (Aug 3, 2015)

Newpylong said:


> I am just hoping he is not allowed to design the trail and lift systems.



Really, why do you think they pulled him into this venture then?


----------



## Jully (Aug 4, 2015)

I was under the impression that Otten is the "they" of your project. He's obviously pulled in a team, but I thought this was his brainchild / method of a comeback.

Could very well be wrong though.


----------



## Newpylong (Aug 4, 2015)

machski said:


> Really, why do you think they pulled him into this venture then?



He knows how to develop, that is everything from getting investors to permits and everything in between. It does not have to be synonymous with physical design.


----------



## skiadikt (Aug 4, 2015)

ss20 said:


> Construction pushed back till "later in fall" http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=294
> 
> Also of interest
> 
> ...



killington was opening "october 1" long before otten got involved. he was just continuing pres smith's policy. did sunday river ever open oct 1? certainly oct 15 is early enough

granted otten had success in building sunday river into a mega eastern resort but his failures (probably the largest ever in the ski industry) far surpass any success he may have had. no way would i trust the guy. his grandiose expectations border on delusion. the same thing that got him in trouble in the past.


----------



## ss20 (Aug 4, 2015)

It just gets better and better...

http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=298



> With a local planning board meeting scheduled in two weeks, new details have been released for the proposed Balsams project.
> 
> The DD-Balsams Subdistrict covers 8,175 of the 11,000 acres in the project master plan. Despite multiple construction delays, Dixville Capital, LLC is still planning on a 2016 opening.
> 
> ...



4,000 units in the first phase of development.  Let's say the average occupancy per unit is 3, then you're gonna have 12,000 people living there.  This would make it the 25th largest town in New Hampshire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_communities_in_New_Hampshire_by_population)


----------



## Tin (Aug 4, 2015)

Otten must have come off his Zyprexa. This is just insanity and has the makings of being mentioned alongside DeLorean and Pets.com.


----------



## Bostonian (Aug 4, 2015)

Hey I still think the DeLorean is a snazzy car... But seriously, 4600 units and all this development? Who on earth from greater Boston will travel for 4 hours to there, when Killington is under 3, Sunday River is 3 in change and the Ski 93 hills in 2+ hours in change too?    Seems overly ambitious for such a far out of the way place.


----------



## skiNEwhere (Aug 4, 2015)

Bostonian said:


> Hey I still think the DeLorean is a snazzy car... But seriously, 4600 units and all this development? Who on earth from greater Boston will travel for 4 hours to there, when Killington is under 3, Sunday River is 3 in change and the Ski 93 hills in 2+ hours in change too?    Seems overly ambitious for such a far out of the way place.



Bostonians drive to the loaf and that's over 4 hours away


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## mbedle (Aug 4, 2015)

That 4,600 unit is at full build out. Initial offering is only 400 units. Just read how he plans to sell these units. Pretty interesting concept. Basically, you buy 100 days for a unit (100K to 280K) and have the ability to sell them back to the resort in exchange for free membership, no HOA fees, etc.


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## Bostonian (Aug 4, 2015)

skiNEwhere said:


> Bostonians drive to the loaf and that's over 4 hours away



But the loaf has unique terrain - Balsams doesn't have the snow fields... or the vertical.


----------



## DoublePlanker (Aug 4, 2015)

Bostonian said:


> But the loaf has unique terrain - Balsams doesn't have the snow fields... or the vertical.



But Balsams will have a gondola.


----------



## Smellytele (Aug 4, 2015)

Bostonian said:


> But the loaf has unique terrain - Balsams doesn't have the snow fields... or the vertical.



More than half the time Bostonians drive to the loaf the snowfields are not open and the vert is about the same with wind holds...


----------



## skiNEwhere (Aug 4, 2015)

DoublePlanker said:


> But Balsams will have a gondola.



I'm pretty sure you're saying that tongue-in-cheek. But I do find it funny how resorts sell their gondola like it's an attraction in itself, almost akin to a new ride at an amusement park


----------



## DoublePlanker (Aug 4, 2015)

skiNEwhere said:


> I'm pretty sure you're saying that tongue-in-cheek. But I do find it funny how resorts sell their gondola like it's an attraction in itself, almost akin to a new ride at an amusement park



I'm sorry.  I meant "signature lift".


----------



## Jully (Aug 4, 2015)

If the Balsams can get the snowfall of something like Jay though, that could give it better powder/natural offerings compared to other resorts south of it. Obviously not going make the resort a success, but it would be a reason why I'd go there over SR or Cannon.

If they can get a few more dumps than competitors and then maintain quality snow due to fewer thaws than others, it could make it attractive to maybe drive the extra 30-60 minutes


----------



## Newpylong (Aug 4, 2015)

Bostonian said:


> But the loaf has unique terrain - Balsams doesn't have the snow fields... or the vertical.



No offense but I doubt many "Bostonians" care about snowfields or unique terrain otherwise places like Loon, Sunapee, Waterville, Bretton Woods wouldn't be mob scenes.


----------



## skiadikt (Aug 4, 2015)

Jully said:


> If the Balsams can get the snowfall of something like Jay though, that could give it better powder/natural offerings compared to other resorts south of it. Obviously not going make the resort a success, but it would be a reason why I'd go there over SR or Cannon.
> 
> If they can get a few more dumps than competitors and then maintain quality snow due to fewer thaws than others, it could make it attractive to maybe drive the extra 30-60 minutes



the summit of mt washington which is 3000' higher, averages 280" of snowfall per year. yeah the balsams is about 50 miles north but doubt it will get anywhere the snowfall of jay.


----------



## x10003q (Aug 4, 2015)

One of the potential markets for The Balsams is Canada and today the Canadian dollar is worth $.76US. The trend is now following oil prices. Canada is on sale again for US residents. 

The idea that full build out is 4600 units is a joke. They will be lucky to sell 400 units.


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## steamboat1 (Aug 4, 2015)

Somebody should take a ride up there to see how much snowfall they get. I have but I ain't talkin.


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## Jully (Aug 5, 2015)

Obviously not getting the snowfall of Jay, but from numerous accounts I've had people tell me the snow is "special" over there. Whatever special means, I don't know because I've never been through the area in the winter. However, if it turns out there is something unique about the snow, then it could be a way to separate the area from the ski 93 mountains and the like.

Not saying it's a definite nor that even with a claim to good snow it'll work out though. I mostly just want this to happen because I'm excited at the idea of a new major place opening in New England because it will most likely be the only opening of this size ever in NE for the rest of our lives. I think that's a pretty cool thing even if it sucks and is a total bust.


----------



## JDMRoma (Aug 5, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Somebody should take a ride up there to see how much snowfall they get. I have but I ain't talkin.



It's a Snowmobilers Mecca ,some of the best riding in the state below Pittsburg.
I've been up there it's better than what they're letting on ! 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## machski (Aug 5, 2015)

Look, many said the same thing about SR in its infancy with real estate, etc.  Oops, guess that was wrong.  Balsams gets more and keeps snow better than any ski 93 area, Wildcat or SR.  That difference to the North (and west of SR) is a big difference maker for those costal storms that come just a bit too close for the rest of NH.  The big difference in my opinion to make or break this, will be the draw of the non-ski season.  That was always stronger up there in the previous Balsams eras.  That is what will make or break this, more than the ski draw.


----------



## ThinkSnow (Aug 5, 2015)

machski said:


> The big difference in my opinion to make or break this, will be the draw of the non-ski season.  That was always stronger up there in the previous Balsams eras.  That is what will make or break this, more than the ski draw.



There currently is a network of trails for hiking and XC skiing, golf course needs to be spruced up, and then there's the possibility of mountain biking and water sports for the off season.


----------



## AdironRider (Aug 5, 2015)

That golf course is top shelf when they are on top of maintenance. One of the better mtn courses in the country IMO.


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## ss20 (Aug 5, 2015)

Should we contact Snowlover to ask about who gets more snow?


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## snoseek (Aug 5, 2015)

They get somewhere between saddleback and jay for snow. I would guess 250ish...but its more aboutnsnow retention than actual snowfall and its cold as hell up there. Almost too cold.


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## steamboat1 (Aug 5, 2015)

snoseek said:


> They get somewhere between saddleback and jay for snow. I would guess 250ish...but its more aboutnsnow retention than actual snowfall and its cold as hell up there. Almost too cold.


Jeeze it's not that far from Sunday River or Wildcat. You make it sound as if you were traveling to the Antarctic or something. Not to mention base & summit elevations aren't to high.

This is what we're talking about.


----------



## snoseek (Aug 5, 2015)

Whole different world up there


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## deadheadskier (Aug 5, 2015)

snoseek said:


> Whole different world up there



+1

Well over an hour North of Wildcat.  Much colder than anywhere else in the state.  Anyone who lives in NH and watches the weather daily for the state knows this.


----------



## SIKSKIER (Aug 6, 2015)

You guys just making up snowfall totals?I found this 74 year snowfall chart and it says that area recieves 100 inches a year.
http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/cgi-bin/cliMAIN.pl?nh2023


----------



## SIKSKIER (Aug 6, 2015)

I also found one with 90 i/y.Then I find this that says 250.Which is it?
http://www.nhliving.com/skiing/balsamswilderness/


----------



## SIKSKIER (Aug 6, 2015)

Just found a few more with 275.


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## Tin (Aug 6, 2015)

It doesn't matter to me if they get 100" or 400", the drive for 1000' of vert and even 1400' after phase 1 is not worth it. Even the final project at 2000' of vert from the East Dixville summit looks to have more of a pod-like complex that it would be impossible to really have more than ~1600' from. Why drive the extra hour when Wildcat has a true 2000' with a fast quad?


----------



## xwhaler (Aug 6, 2015)

Tin said:


> It doesn't matter to me if they get 100" or 400", the drive for 1000' of vert and even 1400' after phase 1 is not worth it. Even the final project at 2000' of vert from the East Dixville summit looks to have more of a pod-like complex that it would be impossible to really have more than ~1600' from. Why drive the extra hour when Wildcat has a true 2000' with a fast quad?



Because Balsams is a grand resort experience with a ton of amenities---Wildcat is an awesome ski mtn but offers nothing once the skis come off at the end of the day.


----------



## ss20 (Aug 6, 2015)

Tin said:


> It doesn't matter to me if they get 100" or 400", the drive for 1000' of vert and even 1400' after phase 1 is not worth it. Even the final project at 2000' of vert from the East Dixville summit looks to have more of a pod-like complex that it would be impossible to really have more than ~1600' from. Why drive the extra hour when Wildcat has a true 2000' with a fast quad?


E a
Low vert never hurt Sunday River's popularity.  I don't really look at vertical as my go-or-no-go stat.  I like acreage and trail milage stats.  But living in CT I do 60% of my skiing at hills with less than 1500' vertical so that might have something to do with it.


----------



## ThinkSnow (Aug 6, 2015)

Don't look at vertical either, albeit my home mountain is Sugarbush with the biggest vertical in New England, so other areas vertical doesn't matter much.


----------



## steamboat1 (Aug 6, 2015)

ThinkSnow said:


> Don't look at vertical either, albeit my home mountain is Sugarbush with* the biggest vertical in the east*, so other areas vertical doesn't matter much.


That would be Whiteface


----------



## ScottySkis (Aug 6, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> That would be Whiteface



+420 up Whiteface is bites vertical .


----------



## ThinkSnow (Aug 6, 2015)

Correction made.  Still doesn't matter.


----------



## steamboat1 (Aug 6, 2015)

Been to Balsams several times during Presidents week (typically coldest time of the year). Never had a problem with cold. Quebec City on the other hand has been cold during the same time period.


----------



## ThinkSnow (Aug 6, 2015)

QC certainly can be cold-- that's what Caribou is for.


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## SIKSKIER (Aug 6, 2015)

ThinkSnow said:


> Don't look at vertical either, albeit my home mountain is Sugarbush with the biggest vertical in New England, so other areas vertical doesn't matter much.



That would be Killington and Sugarloaf before the Bush.


----------



## vonski (Aug 6, 2015)

SIKSKIER said:


> That would be Killington and Sugarloaf before the Bush.



Ya but Killington's vertical is due to the run down the base of the Skyeship.


----------



## mbedle (Aug 6, 2015)

Can we please not get into the vertical conversation again. PLEASE...


----------



## steamboat1 (Aug 6, 2015)

vonski said:


> Ya but Killington's vertical is due to the run down the base of the Skyeship.


Nice run I must say. Topped off with Valley Plunge.

What does the Loaf & Ellen have at the bottom?


----------



## ss20 (Aug 6, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Nice run I must say. Topped off with Valley Plunge.
> 
> What does the Loaf & Ellen have at the bottom?



Loaf: Condos and a looooong slow ride back up waiting for you.

Ellen: A flat sh!tshow as half a dozen of all abilities trails converge into 2.


----------



## Jully (Aug 6, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Nice run I must say. Topped off with Valley Plunge.
> 
> What does the Loaf & Ellen have at the bottom?



I don't think anyone finds the bottom of mountains interesting. Maybe K has one run that's sightly better to the Skyeship base than other places, but it's in no way a marketing point nor a bragging point for the mountain.

No is going to say "Killington: we have one run to our true base that doesn't require skating!" Never mind what we have at our summit! We have the least boring of the boring bases that many people don't even go to!

Besides, Ellen might not have anything, but Lincoln Peak has some fine stuff to the base by Valley House


----------



## snoseek (Aug 6, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Nice run I must say. Topped off with Valley Plunge.
> 
> What does the Loaf & Ellen have at the bottom?



I never got that argument either. I used to park on route 4 at the skyship  and my last run would always be from peak to base....perfect last run IMO.

Vert is taken way to seriously around here. Kirkwood is 1800 tops...no more and its irrevelant IMO. Alta supreme lift was once my daily goto lift and it's probably under 1k. Its not quantity unless you want to rail groomers and crush vert all day, in which case yeah you're probably not driving past all those hills further south. Also there's people in Canada too, Montreal has got to be a big target.

Dixville notch any time of year is just fucking glorious and IMO it provides a truly unique experience. Here's to hoping they can expand upon that and not make another typical same old experience


----------



## snoseek (Aug 7, 2015)

SIKSKIER said:


> You guys just making up snowfall totals?I found this 74 year snowfall chart and it says that area recieves 100 inches a year.
> http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/cgi-bin/cliMAIN.pl?nh2023



Yeah so they had an off year. We barely cleared 100 in Tahoe this year. I don't think its as much a snow advantage as a snow retention advantage. A lot of storms that rain further south are snow. Thaws are quicker. If you look at local nh weather as deadhead mentioned its always the last area on the map to see a mix if it even mixes at all. I saw it straight up snow labor day weekend at the hotel when I did my summer up there.


----------



## marcski (Aug 7, 2015)

Jully said:


> I don't think anyone finds the bottom of mountains interesting. Maybe K has one run that's sightly better to the Skyeship base than other places, but it's in no way a marketing point nor a bragging point for the mountain.



Ski Plattekill right down to the lift...albeit only 1100' but no run-out.


----------



## ThinkSnow (Aug 7, 2015)

SIKSKIER said:


> That would be Killington and Sugarloaf before the Bush.



Kmart?  I think not.


----------



## ThinkSnow (Aug 7, 2015)

snoseek said:


> Vert is taken way to seriously around here.
> 
> Dixville notch any time of year is just fucking glorious and IMO it provides a truly unique experience. Here's to hoping they can expand upon that and not make another typical same old experience



+1


----------



## x10003q (Aug 7, 2015)

snoseek said:


> I never got that argument either. I used to park on route 4 at the skyship  and my last run would always be from peak to base....perfect last run IMO.
> 
> Vert is taken way to seriously around here. Kirkwood is 1800 tops...no more and its irrevelant IMO. Alta supreme lift was once my daily goto lift and it's probably under 1k. Its not quantity unless you want to rail groomers and crush vert all day, in which case yeah you're probably not driving past all those hills further south. Also there's people in Canada too, Montreal has got to be a big target.
> 
> Dixville notch any time of year is just fucking glorious and IMO it provides a truly unique experience. Here's to hoping they can expand upon that and not make another typical same old experience



This is a west coast point of view. Vertical really defines an east coast mtn as most major east coast resorts have much smaller acreage vs west coast mtns. A small vertical (less than 1000) means many short lift rides and many short ski runs. You take what you have, but if there are choices here on the east coast I am going for vertical. In most cases in the East the more vertical the more interesting the terrain. Holiday Valley in NY is 750vf and 290 acres and Hunter Mtn is 1600vf and 240 acres. Where would you rather ski?

If Balsams has mostly a bunch of sub-1000 ft vert pods it just will not draw the people past other bigger vert ski areas.

Canadians have to drive by some great choices here in the US to get to the Balsams. The weak Canadian dollar will impact visits and real estate purchases by Canadians.


----------



## Highway Star (Aug 7, 2015)

ThinkSnow said:


> Kmart?  I think not.



*WARNING: That website is run by morons.*


----------



## ThinkSnow (Aug 7, 2015)

x10003q said:


> If Balsams has mostly a bunch of sub-1000 ft vert pods it just will not draw the people past other bigger vert ski areas.



This is a NJ point of view.


----------



## Newpylong (Aug 7, 2015)

Tin said:


> It doesn't matter to me if they get 100" or 400", the drive for 1000' of vert and even 1400' after phase 1 is not worth it. Even the final project at 2000' of vert from the East Dixville summit looks to have more of a pod-like complex that it would be impossible to really have more than ~1600' from. Why drive the extra hour when Wildcat has a true 2000' with a fast quad?



because it's doubtful their clientele is this board?


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 7, 2015)

x10003q said:


> Canadians have to drive by some great choices here in the US to get to the Balsams. The weak Canadian dollar will impact visits and real estate purchases by Canadians.


I agree with what you said except for the last statement (above).  If you are coming from Montreal, the drive is not an unreasonable drive.  The bigger areas that you drive past (or near) are: Bromont, Owl's Head, Sutton, Jay Peak, and Orford.  If done correctly, The Balsams could hold their own against nearly all of those resorts.  And let's not forget that Sherbrooke is a decent sized city of about 155,000 residents.  

IMHO The Balsams could market itself as more upscale than Jay and less crowded than Jay.  Jay is not at all what it used to be, and that could be a good thing for The Balsams.  

But the HUGE problem facing The Balsams right now is the exchange rate.  For the resort to work, it has to draw Canadians.  Unless things change quickly, that is going to be a challenge.


----------



## Mapnut (Aug 7, 2015)

That's an interesting question; who is their clientele? People who want a luxury resort in a beautiful setting? (Of course there's no luxury resort there now). If they build all those condos, no more than 10% of the customers will be staying at the resort. And it won't be beautiful. It will be Okemo or Loon and twice as far. They could have an excellent ski area if they just added one lift west of and above the existing area, and developed the northeast-facing bowl off the east peak with 4 or 5 lifts and shuttle service. Instead of all those connecting lifts serving short, uneven, or south-facing terrain.


----------



## DoublePlanker (Aug 7, 2015)

Despite its lack of air-conditioning, the prior Balsams hotel was pretty awesome and upscale.  The food was amazing.  Of course, I only went there once in my life as its too far away with too many places to pass including the Bretton Woods/Mt Washington Hotel.  And it was summer.

I would think they have to go somewhat upscale and not the crappy Grand Summit Hotel style.


----------



## ThinkSnow (Aug 7, 2015)

DoublePlanker said:


> I would think they have to go somewhat upscale and not the crappy Grand Summit Hotel style.



+1

More like the Stowe Mountain Lodge.


----------



## Jully (Aug 7, 2015)

Mapnut said:


> That's an interesting question; who is their clientele? People who want a luxury resort in a beautiful setting? (Of course there's no luxury resort there now). If they build all those condos, no more than 10% of the customers will be staying at the resort. And it won't be beautiful. It will be Okemo or Loon and twice as far. They could have an excellent ski area if they just added one lift west of and above the existing area, and developed the northeast-facing bowl off the east peak with 4 or 5 lifts and shuttle service. Instead of all those connecting lifts serving short, uneven, or south-facing terrain.



I think you could do condos in a good way with enough land. Okemo is really really ugly though so I'm not sure how they plan on doing 4000+ units and maintain an upscale wilderness resort setting.

Problem with that expansion is it wouldn't be the biggest baddest resort in the east that way. If it were any sane developer, this would be what was happening. But this is LBO we're dealing with.

I do have a feeling phase 1 is all that's going to stick.


----------



## ss20 (Aug 7, 2015)

Jully said:


> I think you could do condos in a good way with enough land. Okemo is really really ugly though so I'm not sure how they plan on doing 4000+ units and maintain an upscale wilderness resort setting.
> 
> Problem with that expansion is it wouldn't be the biggest baddest resort in the east that way. If it were any sane developer, this would be what was happening. But this is LBO we're dealing with.
> 
> I do have a feeling phase 1 is all that's going to stick.



Okemo's condo's are ugly because most are 30+ years old, imo.  Certainly look dated on the outside.  Canyons...errrr...Park City... has  a massive assortment of upscale homes across the mountain.  Sure, anything with a 10-20 million dollar price tag will look nice, but by giving distance between trails and homes is how you make a nice setting for ski condos.


----------



## x10003q (Aug 7, 2015)

VTKilarney said:


> I agree with what you said except for the last statement (above).  If you are coming from Montreal, the drive is not an unreasonable drive.  The bigger areas that you drive past (or near) are: Bromont, Owl's Head, Sutton, Jay Peak, and Orford.  If done correctly, The Balsams could hold their own against nearly all of those resorts.  And let's not forget that Sherbrooke is a decent sized city of about 155,000 residents.
> 
> IMHO The Balsams could market itself as more upscale than Jay and less crowded than Jay.  Jay is not at all what it used to be, and that could be a good thing for The Balsams.
> 
> But the HUGE problem facing The Balsams right now is the exchange rate.  For the resort to work, it has to draw Canadians.  Unless things change quickly, that is going to be a challenge.



It is not just the areas that are on the way to the Balsams, its the time of the drive. The other closer US areas in VT are Stowe, Smuggs, Burke, and Sugarbush/MRG . In NY, Whiteface is about 2:15 and Gore is about 2:45 from Montreal. That is a lot of competition. 

The exchange rate is a killer right now.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 7, 2015)

The issue with Okemo's condos is not how they look, but the sheer number of them and how far up the ridge line they're built.   It's a major eyesore looking up there from the valley


----------



## VTKilarney (Aug 7, 2015)

x10003q said:


> It is not just the areas that are on the way to the Balsams, its the time of the drive.


By that metric you also need to throw in Tremblant.


----------



## steamboat1 (Aug 7, 2015)

Cheap bastards can't do anything more than day trips. God forbid they spend money for a room.


----------



## dlague (Aug 8, 2015)

snoseek said:


> Yeah so they had an off year. We barely cleared 100 in Tahoe this year. I don't think its as much a snow advantage as a snow retention advantage. A lot of storms that rain further south are snow. Thaws are quicker. If you look at local nh weather as deadhead mentioned its always the last area on the map to see a mix if it even mixes at all. I saw it straight up snow labor day weekend at the hotel when I did my summer up there.





steamboat1 said:


> Cheap bastards can't do anything more than day trips. God forbid they spend money for a room.



Yup day trips for us cheap bastards.  I more than likely will not visit there often and i live in the same state.  Why rent a room when most places I want to ski are less that 2 hours away.  Balsams  will be too far IMO.


----------



## deadheadskier (Aug 8, 2015)

If the skiing is good enough I'm sure some reasonably priced lodging will open up in Colebrook 11 miles down the road.  Even Steaux has cheap lodging options.

Who knows, maybe they'll have a cheap midweek pass and a ski club will open with cheap rooms for steamboat.


----------



## bigbog (Aug 8, 2015)

deadheadskier said:


> The issue with Okemo's condos is not how they look, but the sheer number of them and how far up the ridge line they're built.   It's a major eyesore looking up there from the valley



Agreed...but,
I don't think there are many in management or in the customers who care about what the "neighborhood" looks like...and anyone from the big city going to mind how much development takes over???  It's just a battle of who has the biggest & more expensive = big city mentality @play...ever since the 60s.


----------



## steamboat1 (Aug 8, 2015)

Lancaster already has reasonable enough rooms. Short drive north to Balsams or short drive east to Wildcat. Other areas within a reasonable drive. Headquartered there quite a few times.


----------



## thetrailboss (Aug 8, 2015)

Jully said:


> I don't think anyone finds the bottom of mountains interesting. Maybe K has one run that's sightly better to the Skyeship base than other places, but it's in no way a marketing point nor a bragging point for the mountain.
> 
> No is going to say "Killington: we have one run to our true base that doesn't require skating!" Never mind what we have at our summit! We have the least boring of the boring bases that many people don't even go to!
> 
> Besides, Ellen might not have anything, but Lincoln Peak has some fine stuff to the base by Valley House



I always found something decent at the near bottom of Ellen.

Any progress on Balsams?


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## steamboat1 (Aug 9, 2015)

Jully said:


> I don't think anyone finds the bottom of mountains interesting. Maybe K has one run that's sightly better to the Skyeship base than other places, but it's in no way a marketing point nor a bragging point for the mountain.
> 
> No is going to say "Killington: we have one run to our true base that doesn't require skating!" Never mind what we have at our summit! We have the least boring of the boring bases that many people don't even go to!
> 
> Besides, Ellen might not have anything, but Lincoln Peak has some fine stuff to the base by Valley House


Yeah just one at K. Superstar, Ovation, Outer Limits, Conclusion, High Line, no run outs there. Even Chute is pretty consistent top to bottom. But I regress, nothing to the base. Never mind the top either, Catwalk, Downdraft or Cascade, nothing to see there.


----------



## Jully (Aug 9, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Yeah just one at K. Superstar, Ovation, Outer Limits, Conclusion, High Line, no run outs there. Even Chute is pretty consistent top to bottom. But I regress, nothing to the base. Never mind the top either, Catwalk, Downdraft or Cascade, nothing to see there.



By listing off half a dozen good runs at K you completely missed my point. But if you want to continue spouting off about how good K is go right ahead. I've got nothing against Killington


----------



## Newpylong (Aug 9, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Yeah just one at K. Superstar, Ovation, Outer Limits, Conclusion, High Line, no run outs there. Even Chute is pretty consistent top to bottom. But I regress, nothing to the base. Never mind the top either, Catwalk, Downdraft or Cascade, nothing to see there.



These are trails off certain pods that end at a lift, not the bottom which is what he was talking about. Though I thoroughly enjoy Great Eaatern Killington has terrible usage of their vert compared to Sugarbush and other mountains. It skies 1400-1600 feet at a time. It's silly to argue otherwise...


----------



## dlague (Aug 9, 2015)

Jully said:


> I don't think anyone finds the bottom of mountains interesting. Maybe K has one run that's sightly better to the Skyeship base than other places, but it's in no way a marketing point nor a bragging point for the mountain.
> 
> No is going to say "Killington: we have one run to our true base that doesn't require skating!" Never mind what we have at our summit! We have the least boring of the boring bases that many people don't even go to!
> 
> Besides, Ellen might not have anything, but Lincoln Peak has some fine stuff to the base by Valley House



Cannon has many runs from the summit to Zoomer lift that would challenge most and other runs that offer a mix of glades, steeps and bumps and are not boring at all.


----------



## JDMRoma (Aug 9, 2015)

dlague said:


> Cannon has many runs from the summit to Zoomer lift that would challenge most and other runs that offer a mix of glades, steeps and bumps and are not boring at all.



True but let's not forget it's Always Cold and Icy !!


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## steamboat1 (Aug 9, 2015)

Newpylong said:


> These are trails off certain pods that end at a lift, not the bottom which is what he was talking about. Though I thoroughly enjoy Great Eaatern Killington has terrible usage of their vert compared to Sugarbush and other mountains. It skies 1400-1600 feet at a time. It's silly to argue otherwise...


As do most other mountains including Sugarbush. Super Bravo, Valley House, Heavens Gate, Gate House & North Lynx are pods.

Further more Skyeship is only one of several base areas at K. There's not only one.


----------



## marcski (Aug 9, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> As do most other mountains including Sugarbush. Super Bravo, Valley House, Heavens Gate, Gate House & North Lynx are pods.
> 
> Further more Skyeship is only one of several base areas at K. There's not only one.



IMHO, the problem with K isn't the terrain it's the people that frequent the mountain.


----------



## dlague (Aug 9, 2015)

JDMRoma said:


> True but let's not forget it's Always Cold and Icy !!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



True they should not go there!


----------



## Jully (Aug 9, 2015)

dlague said:


> Cannon has many runs from the summit to Zoomer lift that would challenge most and other runs that offer a mix of glades, steeps and bumps and are not boring at all.



This is very true. Bode's mile!


----------



## Puck it (Aug 10, 2015)

dlague said:


> Cannon has many runs from the summit to Zoomer lift that would challenge most and other runs that offer a mix of glades, steeps and bumps and are not boring at all.


There is a bar at the end of that run too!!!!


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## SIKSKIER (Aug 10, 2015)

Jully said:


> I don't think anyone finds the bottom of mountains interesting.


Cannon has most of its steep terrain at the bottom with no runout.


----------



## JDMRoma (Aug 10, 2015)

SIKSKIER said:


> Cannon has most of its steep terrain at the bottom with no runout.



There are run outs on the front five, but your haulin ass when you get to them. Think of it as a cool down section !!


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


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## dlague (Aug 10, 2015)

JDMRoma said:


> There are run outs on the front five, but your haulin ass when you get to them. Think of it as a cool down section !!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



From Zoomer or Pauli's to the Zoomer chair I would say not so much.  Avalanche to Zoomer Chair maybe a little like you said you are haulin' there.  Banshee to Zoomer Chair - yup runout.  Getting to the Tram yup run outs if.... if you take the wrong path!  All runouts there can be avoided!


----------



## SkiFanE (Aug 10, 2015)

Some news. Facts and marketing.  Did t see a link here - sorry if it's a dupe - hard culling through all the vertical and runout discussions lol. 

http://news.bethelcitizen.com/balsams-gets-ok-to-draw-water-from-andro/


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## SIKSKIER (Aug 11, 2015)

I wouldnt call them runouts.More like cutbacks.Runouts to me are trails that continue down the fall line but flatten out severely.


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## Jully (Aug 11, 2015)

SIKSKIER said:


> I wouldnt call them runouts.More like cutbacks.Runouts to me are trails that continue down the fall line but flatten out severely.



They impact the skiing experience similarly though


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## from_the_NEK (Aug 11, 2015)

So almost any trail that doesn't end directly at a lift qualifies as having a "runout" that is detrimental to your skiing experience :roll:. 
The only way to truly solve this problem is to have a lift serving every single trail.


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## ScottySkis (Aug 11, 2015)

from_the_NEK said:


> So almost any trail that doesn't end directly at a lift qualifies as having a "runout" that is detrimental to your skiing experience :roll:.
> The only way to truly solve this problem is to have a lift serving every single trail.



That what is great about a hill in Roxbruyhhhhhyy ny


----------



## ThinkSnow (Sep 24, 2015)

Most recent news:

http://www.unionleader.com/Balsams_...still_on_track_for_this_year,_says_spokesman_


----------



## machski (Oct 11, 2015)

Went up and hiked the Northern rim of the notch.  From this shot, I can see some appeal of the place.  That said, driving north then back south to see the old ski area and dixville peak behind it, it just does not look "Big" to me like SL, SB, Stowe, Jay, Cannon, Wildcat or even SR.  But the foliage against the lake and hotel is beautiful.


----------



## Edd (Nov 12, 2015)

Not much new here but WMUR did this bit on it last night. 

http://m.wmur.com/news/balsams-project-gets-support-at-public-hearing/36398536


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## DoublePlanker (Nov 21, 2015)

Unionleader article, dev team waiting for permits to start construction.

http://www.unionleader.com/Planners-will-reconvene-to-discuss-The-Balsams-project


----------



## wtcobb (Nov 23, 2015)

Hiked up to Table Rock and along the ridge to the cascades this weekend. Being in the depths of stick season, the area was completely empty. 

Sitting atop Table Rock.







Leaning over the edge to capture the cliff face. Rt. 26 and the pond below.






If the proposed lifts from the resort do stretch over 26, that would make for one dramatic lift ride alongside the table. Along the CT to the cascades there were a ton of recent survey markers. The state/private land line stretches very close to the current hiking trail, and overlaps in some spots. Heading back down to the cascade I remarked that the terrain would make for some great skiing, even in its current state: nice wide hardwoods, easy declines with some swift drops... I imagine it could be a bit like SR's Blind Ambition playground.

Though I'm not equipped to shell out for an ownership stake, I'd certainly visit this place. About 1.5 hours from my house, and an easy/scenic drive up Rt. 3. Lancaster has a nice downtown. Groveton and Colebrook have some really depressed areas, though. Not much driving the economy besides the Corridor traffic. Just along Rt. 3 there are a lot of homes for sale/foreclosed. A development this size would certainly help provide jobs and tourist spending to the area...


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## Mapnut (Nov 23, 2015)

wtcobb said:


> Hiked up to Table Rock and along the ridge to the cascades this weekend. Being in the depths of stick season, the area was completely empty.
> 
> QUOTE]
> Thanks for the great photos! Hiking in "stick season" can be great if the weather cooperates. But on November 15 Breakneck Ridge near Cold Spring, NY was mobbed. Saw probably 200 people in a 4-hour hike, the most I've ever seen. That you saw nobody might be a comment on Balsams' remoteness.


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## thetrailboss (Nov 23, 2015)

Nice pics


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## wtcobb (Nov 23, 2015)

> That you saw nobody might be a comment on Balsams' remoteness.



I'd agree with that. Road traffic was sparse the whole way up, and walking back 1.5 miles along 26 to the car only a handful of drivers passed us.

I must say I was surprised to find Balsams is 2.5 hours to Montreal - it's the same from Littleton, much further south. But Littleton has highway access through 91/10 where Dixville has winding backroads.


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## Edd (Nov 23, 2015)

This was Table Rock in Grafton Notch, yes? A lot of bang for your buck with that hike.


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## wtcobb (Nov 23, 2015)

Dixville Notch. Table Rock Climbing trail ascends 600 feet in about 3/10 of a mile. Steep!


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## Edd (Nov 23, 2015)

uphillklimber said:


> Not the one in Grafton Notch. There is only one road there, and you can see the intersection in her pics.



I was thinking the same about that intersection, but I'm not aware of another Table Rock in that area. Are there 2 Table Rocks along Rt 26 in that region?


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## wtcobb (Nov 24, 2015)

That intersection is the entrance to the Balsams Resort (curving around the pond) off of 26. 

Turns out that both Table Rock/Baldplate in Maine and Table Rock in Dixville Notch are along Rt. 26. 

Table Rock to Table Rock: 
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Tab...847c100be9883d!2m2!1d-71.3034135!2d44.8622701


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## DoublePlanker (Dec 2, 2015)

http://m.wmur.com/news/balsams-redevelopment-project-clears-major-hurdle/36766692


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## EPB (Dec 3, 2015)

Hopefully this thing can get lift off early next spring


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## machski (Dec 3, 2015)

If they stick with phase 1 as is, there could be up to six lifts being installed next summer/fall, and that excludes any upgrades to the existing lifts.  I can't see all that happening to open for next season.  Maybe if they start cutting early spring while snow still on the ground.  Otherwise, I would think 2017-18 a more realistic phase 1 opening.  Maybe they will open for preview on the existing area next year?


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## ThinkSnow (Dec 5, 2015)

More news:

http://www.unionleader.com/Planning-Board-green-lights-Balsams-development


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## SIKSKIER (Dec 7, 2015)

I noticed that article mentioned nothing about even the existing ski area in the phase one development.


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## Smellytele (Dec 7, 2015)

SIKSKIER said:


> I noticed that article mentioned nothing about even the existing ski area in the phase one development.



"
*The  ski area is part* of the $145 million Phase 1 of the project which also  calls for renovating the Dix, Hampshire, and Hale houses and the  Panorama golf course and clubhouse; construction of a 500-room hotel,  conference center, Nordic hot baths and spa, a performing arts center,  and an open-air marketplace. "


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## wtcobb (Dec 7, 2015)

An open-air marketplace in Dixville?

HOW BAZAAR.


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## billski (Dec 7, 2015)

wtcobb said:


> An open-air marketplace in Dixville?
> 
> HOW BAZAAR.



Open the first weekend of August every year.


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## ss20 (Dec 7, 2015)

wtcobb said:


> An open-air marketplace in Dixville?
> 
> HOW BAZAAR.



I bet it took you all night to think of that  :dunce:


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## SIKSKIER (Dec 8, 2015)

Smellytele said:


> "
> *The  ski area is part* of the $145 million Phase 1 of the project which also  calls for renovating the Dix, Hampshire, and Hale houses and the  Panorama golf course and clubhouse; construction of a 500-room hotel,  conference center, Nordic hot baths and spa, a performing arts center,  and an open-air marketplace. "



I thought it was but there was no mention at all in that article so it made me wonder if things had changed.


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## VTKilarney (Dec 8, 2015)

In hindsight, it may have been a stroke of luck that they weren't able to open the ski area for this year.  Christmas week is looking mighty ugly.


----------



## Smellytele (Dec 8, 2015)

SIKSKIER said:


> I thought it was but there was no mention at all in that article so it made me wonder if things had changed.



That quote was from the article


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## SIKSKIER (Dec 9, 2015)

Duh,just reread your quote.


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## DoublePlanker (Dec 21, 2015)

Wetlands permit secured.
http://www.wmur.com/escape-outside/balsams-project-secures-crucial-wetlands-permit/37068084


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## wtcobb (Dec 21, 2015)

Even being that much farther north wouldn't help this week:

http://www.wunderground.com/q/locid:NHSPDN;loctype:13

:-o


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## MEtoVTSkier (Dec 21, 2015)

http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=362


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## DoublePlanker (Dec 21, 2015)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=362



That references a UnionLeader article with more details:

http://www.newhampshire.com/article/20151220/NEWHAMPSHIRE03/151229989

I highly doubt any change to what was agreed.


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## wtcobb (Dec 29, 2015)

Another hurdle cleared: http://nhpr.org/post/army-corps-engineers-balsams-project-will-have-minimal-water-wetlands-affects


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## steamboat1 (Dec 29, 2015)

uphillklimber said:


> You know, Les may not be the most popular guy around, and ASC did go bankrupt or darn near it, but we do have him to thank for a lot of ski terrain. I hope he makes a go with this.



Sugarbush, Sunday River & Killington would not be what they are today without him (lifts). Not to mention the Grand hotels he built at Mt. Snow & Attitash.


----------



## mbedle (Dec 29, 2015)

You know what is interesting, there appears to be a couple private lots located within the proposed ski area boundary. Once this thing is done, those owners will have some pretty sweet slope side properties. Another thing that was interesting is the majority of the proposed ski area is on land owned by Bayroot LLC, a paper company. I thought the Balsams owned all that land.


----------



## mbedle (Dec 29, 2015)

Never mind - they have an agreement with the property owners (specifically Bayroot which owns 3,600 acres of the ski resort land) to take ownership of the land for the development. Below is a link with a good read on the resort development. Not sure if this was posted before. 

http://www.cooscountynh.us/sites/co..._to_stewartstown_-_conditional_use_permit.pdf


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## ss20 (Dec 29, 2015)

uphillklimber said:


> You know, Les may not be the most popular guy around, and ASC did go bankrupt or darn near it, but we do have him to thank for a lot of ski terrain. I hope he makes a go with this.





steamboat1 said:


> Sugarbush, Sunday River & Killington would not be what they are today without him (lifts). Not to mention the Grand hotels he built at Mt. Snow & Attitash.



ditto and ditto.  ASC gets a lot of hate... but Otten made the most out of the mountains he owned.  While resorts put in condos and villages he focused on the terrain first, knowing real estate would follow.  Real estate bankrupted a lot of mountains... Tenney, Ascutney, because they lacked on-hill investment.  

What Otten did with Canyons was incredible.  In 15 years he turned a small ski area into what would be equivalent to two large resorts, in the most competitive ski region in North America.

Vail may have connected Park City and Canyons, but there would be no Canyons to connect with if it weren't for Otten.


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## Newpylong (Dec 30, 2015)

steamboat1 said:


> Sugarbush, Sunday River & Killington would not be what they are today without him (lifts). Not to mention the Grand hotels he built at Mt. Snow & Attitash.



The castration of Rams Head, the abandonment of Northeast Passage, and the shorter replacement of Needle's Eye go along with K1 and Skyeship. I would say they did much more harm than good at Killington.

Sunday River and Sugarbush they were great for.


----------



## thetrailboss (Dec 30, 2015)

Newpylong said:


> The castration of Rams Head, the abandonment of Northeast Passage, and the shorter replacement of Needle's Eye go along with K1 and Skyeship. I would say they did much more harm than good at Killington.
> 
> Sunday River and Sugarbush they were great for.



I believe that Skyeship was SKI and not ASC.


----------



## Newpylong (Dec 30, 2015)

Good point that was the year before.


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## steamboat1 (Dec 30, 2015)

I never realized that replacing slow fixed grip double chairs with high speed detachable quad chairs was a detriment to a ski area.


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## Newpylong (Dec 30, 2015)

They are when they remove lift serviced terrain and make you get on the gondola to ski terrain the chair used to serve. Do they get a Mulligan for Sunrise too?


----------



## machski (Dec 30, 2015)

Newpylong said:


> They are when they remove lift serviced terrain and make you get on the gondola to ski terrain the chair used to serve. Do they get a Mulligan for Sunrise too?



You need to study history more.  Sunrise was a low use area, especially when development on the southeast side fell through.  Trade offs were made to make the interconnect happen with Pico.  Unfortunately they never got there (IMHO partly due to VT bureaucracy).  Had they, you would have the top of Rams Head back in play right now.  How long is the skyeship terrain in play even in a good year?  And you wish they had even more stretched out low elevation terrain to soak up snowmaking resources why exactly?


----------



## Newpylong (Dec 30, 2015)

Well aware of the history with Parkers Gore I was a passholder throughout this era.

FYI all permits were (and still are if they haven't expired) in place for the Pico K interconnect. It came down to money, as it still does.

Lower Sunrise had good terrain vs Skyeship and while there rarely was a line due to the lift, it was utilized, just not to the extent of the other pods. Anyone who says otherwise didn't ski it. It's a debate that's been going on for well over a decade. Plenty of people agree with me, plenty disagree.


----------



## VTKilarney (Dec 30, 2015)

machski said:


> Trade offs were made to make the interconnect happen with Pico.  Unfortunately they never got there (IMHO partly due to VT bureaucracy).  Had they, you would have the top of Rams Head back in play right now.


And if the queen had balls she'd be the king.  Your argument isn't very compelling.


----------



## machski (Dec 30, 2015)

Newpylong said:


> Well aware of the history with Parkers Gore I was a passholder throughout this era.
> 
> FYI all permits were (and still are if they haven't expired) in place for the Pico K interconnect. It came down to money, as it still does.
> 
> Lower Sunrise had good terrain vs Skyeship and while there rarely was a line due to the lift, it was utilized, just not to the extent of the other pods. Anyone who says otherwise didn't ski it. It's a debate that's been going on for well over a decade. Plenty of people agree with me, plenty disagree.



I'll agree, the terrain was more interesting than skyeship.  With that said, the northeast passage triple was brutal.  To make that a viable pod and justify the expense of snowmaking (low elevation would require it) would have cost millions, and bubble quads were not yet in vogue.  Decisions were made, it was decided to focus on the interconnect which true, didn't happen.  From a business side, it made more sense.  Higher elevation of that terrain gives a better chance at being open.  I have a feeling that had SKI not have installed skyeship, that pod may have been left for dead by both operators (ASC and Powder).  What do they make, just one run down to Skyeship with snowmaking now?  Big focus.


----------



## Newpylong (Dec 30, 2015)

Those are all good points.

Yes one run (Great Eastern) down all the way to Skyeship with snowmaking, but that's all there ever has been. Home Stretch (ex 4 mile) almost all the way down gets it in good snow years as well. Actually SKI installed snowmaking on this section (below Great Eastern and above East Mountain Road) the year Skyeship went in.


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## steamboat1 (Dec 31, 2015)

Killington sucks

Don't go there.


----------



## machski (Dec 31, 2015)

Newpylong said:


> Those are all good points.
> 
> Yes one run (Great Eastern) down all the way to Skyeship with snowmaking, but that's all there ever has been. Home Stretch (ex 4 mile) almost all the way down gets it in good snow years as well. Actually SKI installed snowmaking on this section (below Great Eastern and above East Mountain Road) the year Skyeship went in.



True, and of course, both Touchdown and Valley Plunge have snow making lines.  While it is short, I've always wondered why they don't use the hydrants and make Valley Plunge.  From the east, it is now the first trail you can actually see.  Never a good feeling seeing grass and dirt on that even if the rest of the resort is white.


----------



## Newpylong (Dec 31, 2015)

I don't recall ever seeing Touchdown having its own pipes. If it's noted as having snowmaking capability it might be due to close proximity to Valley Plunge.

As for Valley Plunge there is what, 2 hydrants right before the last drop? In my near 30 years of going there they haven't been used. Same deal for Lower Pipe Dream. My guess is disconnected and otherwise unservicable. It is a fun run though, it would be nice to have it open more. I use Skyeship as my starting point at K.


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## ss20 (Dec 31, 2015)

Newpylong said:


> As for Valley Plunge there is what, 2 hydrants right before the last drop? In my near 30 years of going there they haven't been used. Same deal for Lower Pipe Dream. My guess is disconnected and otherwise unservicable. It is a fun run though, it would be nice to have it open more. I use Skyeship as my starting point at K.



Perhaps because the gondola is at a low point there?  Not enough clearance.  That's what I remember seeing.  Never parked at Skyeship and can count the number of times I've gone all the way down to Stage 1 on one hand.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Dec 31, 2015)

Ok, enough cluttering up the Balsams thread with complaints about how Killington. :smash:


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 1, 2016)

Looks like the Les Otten PR machine is warming up.....



> "We've already received more than twenty-five inches of natural snow on the mountain and have experienced more than 200 hours of weather cold enough for robust snowmaking," said Otten. "If the Balsams Wilderness ski area were up and running today, we'd likely have every trail open, despite the warm, wet weather the rest of the region is experiencing.
> 
> "When it comes to being colder and getting more snow than any resort in the Northeast, the Balsams advantage starts with an approximate 2000-foot elevation at our ski area's base," he said. "In addition, we are north of New Hampshire's Presidential mountain range, yet close enough to ocean to be in a prime position to reap the highest snowfalls from winter storms which typically track from the north and east."



http://caledonianrecord.com/main.asp?SectionID=180&SubSectionID=778&ArticleID=141666


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## deadheadskier (Jan 1, 2016)

Lol

Every trail open?


----------



## thetrailboss (Jan 1, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> Lol
> 
> Every trail open?



Yep.  It's like how he said White Heat is the "longest steepest widest bump run in the east."


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## ss20 (Jan 1, 2016)

Every trail open?! :blink:  


Some people never change.  Ambition made him and killed him in the ski industry.  Hopefully he doesn't blow it this time ;-)


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## x10003q (Jan 2, 2016)

ss20 said:


> Every trail open?! :blink:
> 
> 
> Some people never change.  Ambition made him and killed him in the ski industry.  Hopefully he doesn't blow it this time ;-)



It is already too late for him. The approximate base of Balsams is 1800 ft elevation not 2000 ft elevation. How hard is it to tell the truth?


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## Newpylong (Jan 2, 2016)

Every trail in 200 hours. Makes for good humor.


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## doublediamond (Jan 2, 2016)

Well the permitted pumping rate is ridiculous.  Add in this will basically be a new build so I'm sure everything will be automatic meaning you can maximize your snowmaking constantly.  It's amazing how much efficiency can improve simply by turning on a trail in 30 seconds with the click of a button vs. one to two hours manually.  And you'll be constantly up at the max production curve as temp drops and if it warms you won't be putting out rain/slush on the hill.

And FWIW, Big Squaw has 22 of 29 "trails" open right now with very limited snowmaking ... a whopping 6 fan guns ... 2 Highlands and 4 Wizards.

And it snows *A LOT* in Dixville Notch.  I wouldn't be surprised if they really do have 2 feet.


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## Newpylong (Jan 2, 2016)

Have not used the Klik systems yet (we will never be able to afford them) - are they really worth it? Are looking at automated Lencos though.


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## doublediamond (Jan 2, 2016)

Well even though LBO is the king of air-water guns, Balsams never had compressors.  They had Lenko fans (that have been mostly/fully sold off by now).  I can't imagine a new-build will go air-water because the pipe cost is outrageous.

Here's a handy estimate comparison at the bottom of the pdf for new build air-water vs. fan systems

Are you talking about the full on software package or or the Klik hydrant?  

If it's the former, sure there's proprietary software and servos/actuators, but it's fairly old technology to be able to control them.  Ski areas were automating trails early to mid 90s.  

If the latter, it's just a hydrant with a unique 4-step valve replacing the on/off from the pipe and the valve on the tower gun, and 5 lengths of short non-kink hose (1 each per water stage, 1 per air stage) so that the hoses drain and you don't need to take them down the mountain.

I honestly don't know the cost of either.  A Klik hydrant can't be that expensive -- double at most(?).  
I'm pulling that out my ass.  But I do know they're popping up left and right at places like Loon.  You don't have an air hydrant either as you install a hose directly to the air pipe.  The Klik hydrant turns air on/off as well.  HKDs - save the Impulse - are full-bore air all the time. 

If Balsams goes fan gun route, there are semi-automatic/automatic options just onboard, and you don't need a whole control system.

My thought is that it's a lot easier to finance and build a more expensive automated system from essentially scratch vs. a cheaper manual system and come up with that automation costs at some later date.  That logic is why all the airlines use ancient 50's vintage ticketing systems such as SABRE (and all the unnecessary crashes these days) vs. reinvesting in a modern system.  

Same logic can be applied to snowmaking.  But unlike airline ticket sales with interchangeable computers, the snowmaking plant is unique to each mountain.  So it's best to go all out for the latest tech.


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## SIKSKIER (Jan 25, 2016)

New update

Balsams Reopening Postponed Again 
http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=379


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## ss20 (Jan 25, 2016)

SIKSKIER said:


> New update
> 
> Balsams Reopening Postponed Again
> http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=379



Who would've thought?  (Sarcasm)


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## doublediamond (Jan 25, 2016)

How long did it take Crotched to reopen start to finsish? What about once shovels actually hit the ground?

Granted, Tenney is a much smaller operation, but they've been taking a long time too.


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## wtcobb (Jan 25, 2016)

> [FONT=Georgia, Arial]The project was originally slated  to start on June 1, 2015, however developers cited the legislative  process in obtaining state backed bonds as reason for delaying  construction until late summer.  The project was delayed again during  the summer with a new groundbreaking date set for fall 2015.  More  recently, a June 1, 2016 groundbreaking date has been suggested.[/FONT]



Waiting for the "Unless we receive additional funding..."


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## Edd (Jan 25, 2016)

Completely unrealistic timetables are the business norm these days, in my experience.


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## yeggous (Jan 25, 2016)

Edd said:


> Completely unrealistic timetables are the business norm these days, in my experience.



I'd believe this is true in real estate development, but not every industry. Tech is incredibly hot right now. With the advances in software that are emerging, we usually finish long projects ahead of schedule. By the time you start later tasks there are often better tools available than when the project was scoped.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


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## wtcobb (Jan 26, 2016)

Anyone know if there's a limit on skinning the existing Balsam trails as it's private land?

Sent from my Verizon Wireless Speak and Spell using Tapatalk.


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## machski (Jan 26, 2016)

wtcobb said:


> Anyone know if there's a limit on skinning the existing Balsam trails as it's private land?
> 
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless Speak and Spell using Tapatalk.



Not sure but the road to the area base is marked as closed to traffic.  Parking could be an issue.


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## wtcobb (Jan 26, 2016)

Good point. Even parking for hiking there is limited, never mind in winter.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless Speak and Spell using Tapatalk.


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## wtcobb (Mar 9, 2016)

No update on the project, but one of the investors revealed:

http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=395



> [FONT=Georgia, Arial]In his Monday testimony before the  New Hampshire Site Evaluation Committee, Balsams developer Les Otten  disclosed one of his investors is the Northern Pass.  The Balsams  property was originally sold to the present ownership to prevent the  construction of the controversial power transmission line.[/FONT]


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## SIKSKIER (Mar 9, 2016)

Calling it “a real show of good faith,” a spokesman for the Maine developer seeking to revitalize The Balsams resort said the $2 million recently provided by Eversource has already been put to use in finalizing plans for the project and, hopefully, a groundbreaking early this summer.On Tuesday, both Scott Tranchemontagne, on behalf of developer Les Otten, and Martin Murray, on behalf of Eversource, said there was no connection between Otten receiving the Forward New Hampshire Fund award and his speaking in favor of Northern Pass on Monday evening.Otten testified in Colebrook during a public hearing held by the New Hampshire Site Evaluation Committee on the application of Eversource to bring Canadian hydropower through the Granite State and into the New England energy grid.A former ski industry executive, Otten is also the owner of Maine Energy Systems, which sells wood-pellet boilers and heating systems. During the SEC hearing, Otten made his support for the Northern Pass known as well as that Eversource had invested $2 million in his development company, Balsams View LLC, through its FNH Fund.Tranchemontagne said Otten had inquired about the fund last fall and only within the past weeks heard that The Balsams project would be a beneficiary.“It’s impossible to sell out with something you really believe in and Les believes in renewable fuels,” Tranchemontagne said Tuesday.With 30 years in the ski-tourism industry, Otten has had to deal with transmission towers before, said Tranchemontagne. He said when The Balsams re-opens, its ski area will already be sitting within the shadows of 33 wind turbines, while the resort proper will be within a mile of the Northern Pass transmission lines.“If I thought for a minute that wind towers and Northern Pass would keep people away from the Balsams, I certainly would not be spearheading a $143 million investment into restoring it,” Otten said Monday in his SEC testimony.Murray said Tuesday the FNH Fund money had “absolutely no strings attached for the Balsams project.” The award was “entirely consistent with the objective of the $200 million fund,” said Murray, which while promoting economic development statewide, focuses particular attention on the needs of the North Country.The Balsams, he said, “fits very neatly into the areas of economic development and tourism” that the fund was created to promote - See more at: http://www.unionleader.com/Balsams-...-behalf-of-Northern-Pass#sthash.fDUI38Ep.dpuf


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## wtcobb (Mar 9, 2016)

> On Tuesday, both Scott Tranchemontagne, on behalf of developer Les  Otten, and Martin Murray, on behalf of Eversource, said there was no  connection between Otten receiving the Forward New Hampshire Fund award  and his speaking in favor of Northern Pass on Monday evening.



Just ignore that $2M pile of cash, I'm here on my own terms.

Bio-fuel (AKA wood) needs to stop being classified as a renewable energy source. The rate at which wood burns is a bit faster than the rate at which trees grow. I say this as someone who relies on a wood stove for heat.


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## yeggous (Mar 9, 2016)

wtcobb said:


> Just ignore that $2M pile of cash, I'm here on my own terms.
> 
> Bio-fuel (AKA wood) needs to stop being classified as a renewable energy source. The rate at which wood burns is a bit faster than the rate at which trees grow. I say this as someone who relies on a wood stove for heat.



We have more trees in New England today than any time in about 200 years.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Newpylong (Mar 9, 2016)

wtcobb said:


> Just ignore that $2M pile of cash, I'm here on my own terms.
> 
> Bio-fuel (AKA wood) needs to stop being classified as a renewable energy source. The rate at which wood burns is a bit faster than the rate at which trees grow. I say this as someone who relies on a wood stove for heat.



Wood is biomass, not biofuel. Biofuel is ethanol, etc.

Wood is generally considered renewable. Not that I think there is data to show we burn faster than it re-grows in New England. Ever wonder why there are stone walls everywhere? It all used to be pasture...


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## wtcobb (Mar 9, 2016)

Yes, sorry, Biomass. And having more trees today than any time in the past 200 years doesn't change the consumption of wood vs. the growth. I burned 2+ cords this winter. Denser NE hardwoods - the ones we strive after for heat - are slow growth. Point here is that Biomass isn't renewable the same way solar/wind is. Yes, the trees grow back, but if you harvest faster than they grow, it's not really renewable...


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## wtcobb (Mar 9, 2016)

Basically I'm calling BS on Otten claiming he's all for renewable energy and that's why he's backing Northern Pass. $2M seems like a more compelling reason to back a project.


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## jaytrem (Mar 9, 2016)

wtcobb said:


> Yes, sorry, Biomass. And having more trees today than any time in the past 200 years doesn't change the consumption of wood vs. the growth. I burned 2+ cords this winter. Denser NE hardwoods - the ones we strive after for heat - are slow growth. Point here is that Biomass isn't renewable the same way solar/wind is. Yes, the trees grow back, but if you harvest faster than they grow, it's not really renewable...



I'd say it's pretty renewable.  Most of the pellets are made from a byproduct of saw mills, sawdust.  And apparently soft woods make for better pellets (see link below).  Driving around Northern BC about I month ago I think I saw enough massive piles of sawdust to heat the whole world with pellets.  So until demand is higher than supply I'd say it's renewable.

http://www.pelletking.com/wood-pellet-information.aspx


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## VTKilarney (Mar 9, 2016)

Wood is a carbon neutral fuel, which is important to some people.  Harvesting the wood and transporting it is far from carbon neutral, however.

Burning wood is like eating organic food.  It's fine if some people do it, but if everyone did it the environmental consequences would be devastating.  


.


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## AdironRider (Mar 9, 2016)

wtcobb said:


> Yes, sorry, Biomass. And having more trees today than any time in the past 200 years doesn't change the consumption of wood vs. the growth. I burned 2+ cords this winter. Denser NE hardwoods - the ones we strive after for heat - are slow growth. Point here is that Biomass isn't renewable the same way solar/wind is. Yes, the trees grow back, but if you harvest faster than they grow, it's not really renewable...



A properly managed woodlot can produce 1-1.25 cords per acre a year, every year, for eternity. If you were really savvy it would be a sugarbush as well.


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## Harvey (Mar 9, 2016)

AdironRider said:


> A properly managed woodlot can produce 1-1.25 cords per acre a year, every year, for eternity. If you were really savvy it would be a sugarbush as well.



How big a lot do you need to produce that much?

I'm using a bit less than a cord, and have a pretty large lot. Unfortunately buying the word "makes more sense" (not for the environment, but by my own selfish calculus) when I figure the value of my free time. It ends up split and stacked right where I need it.


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## SIKSKIER (Mar 10, 2016)

I like to just turn the dial on the thermostat.I burn wood for the ambiance in my fierplace at the skihouse.It sucks the heat right out of the place but its nice to look at.


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## AdironRider (Mar 10, 2016)

My in laws have been getting it done for 50 years or so off their 10 acre lot. 

No argument on the just pay and get it stacked, I do the same. I was referencing the notion that wood isn't sustainable, when in fact it is when managed properly.


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## wtcobb (Mar 10, 2016)

That's really cool your folks manage the land. Wish my property was more heavily wooded to achieve that. I'm still behind VTK's comment:



> Burning wood is like eating organic food.  It's fine if some people do  it, but if everyone did it the environmental consequences would be  devastating.



Here's a neat graphic showing total and annual energy reserves from different sources:








Anyways, point of the post was Otten's funding from F-NH / Northern Pass.


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## Newpylong (Mar 10, 2016)

AdironRider said:


> My in laws have been getting it done for 50 years or so off their 10 acre lot.
> 
> No argument on the just pay and get it stacked, I do the same. I was referencing the notion that wood isn't sustainable, when in fact it is when managed properly.



I have 22 acres and still pay for some of the wood I use! Lotta labor in the whole process from downing to splitting.


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## bdfreetuna (Mar 10, 2016)

AdironRider said:


> A properly managed woodlot can produce 1-1.25 cords per acre a year, every year, for eternity. If you were really savvy it would be a sugarbush as well.



Managed to get 10-15 cords a year out of 11 acres for about 10 years straight without thinning out the woods.

So that sounds accurate based on my experience.

Very time and labor consuming though. Lots of weekends spent cutting and hauling dead or diseased trees.


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## AdironRider (Mar 10, 2016)

Never said it was easy. 

I don't think anyone is saying wood would replace everything (as that chart implies total energy use, not just heat like 99.9% of wood is used for), but there is plenty of resource there to go around in colder climates. 

Besides, its a pretty local thing. The logistics of moving cord wood around (even without cutting, splitting, etc to begin with) is ridiculous.


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## Smellytele (Mar 10, 2016)

AdironRider said:


> Besides, its a pretty local thing. The logistics of moving cord wood around (even without cutting, splitting, etc to begin with) is ridiculous.



With the insect issues almost impossible to move across state lines


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## wtcobb (Apr 26, 2016)

A not-really-an-update but something to push the news: planning board meeting tonight to approve clearing:

http://nhpr.org/post/balsams-ski-expansion-plan-includes-clearing-high-elevation-forest


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## bootladder (Apr 26, 2016)

Les Otten is in the pocket of Quebec Hydro/Northern Pass, and as a home owner in NH I am not in favor. 

$2M from "Forward NH" to Les to promote an unnecessary power line built at the expense of many acres of woodlands in Ontario (hydo power-via flooding), environmental problems in NH. Les not a good neighbor. Go back to Maine.  LePage probably loves you.


http://nhpr.org/post/northern-pass-investing-balsams 

This activity may have already been posted on this board, but the search feature of the board doesn't turn anything up.


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## ss20 (Apr 27, 2016)

bootladder said:


> Les Otten is in the pocket of Quebec Hydro/Northern Pass, and as a home owner in NH I am not in favor.
> 
> $2M from "Forward NH" to Les to promote an unnecessary power line built at the expense of many acres of woodlands in Ontario (hydo power-via flooding), environmental problems in NH. Les not a good neighbor. Go back to Maine.  LePage probably loves you.
> 
> ...



I don't think people who ski down mountains where thousands and thousand and thousands of trees have been cleared for their sport really care about the trees that are cut for a power line.  I know I'm in that boat at least.  And if more power up north means lower electricity costs for the resorts and therefore more snowmaking I am ALL for it.

Just my .02 cents.


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## cdskier (Apr 27, 2016)

ss20 said:


> I don't think people who ski down mountains where thousands and thousand and thousands of trees have been cleared for their sport really care about the trees that are cut for a power line.  I know I'm in that boat at least.  And if more power up north means lower electricity costs for the resorts and therefore more snowmaking I am ALL for it.
> 
> Just my .02 cents.



I would completely disagree. I think there are many skiers that also care deeply about the environment and trees... I bet there are a lot of skiers that wish LESS trees had been cut on the mountains that they ski. Personally I like narrower trails anyway...

That said I know nothing about this Forward NH project and what it entails. The article linked had very little info so I can't make a decision one way or the other.


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## Smellytele (Apr 27, 2016)

ss20 said:


> I don't think people who ski down mountains where thousands and thousand and thousands of trees have been cleared for their sport really care about the trees that are cut for a power line.  I know I'm in that boat at least.  And if more power up north means lower electricity costs for the resorts and therefore more snowmaking I am ALL for it.
> 
> Just my .02 cents.



The northern pass power is not scheduled to provide any power to northern NH or any of NH at all it is just transmission lines to feed Southern New England as far as I have read.


----------



## Newpylong (Apr 27, 2016)

With the recent plan to bury all but a handfull of miles of transmission line and mandatory wholesale % of electric going to NH Utilities I am all for the Northern Pass. There is not enough natural gas into the region, coal has been priced out, and even the NIMBYs are fighting solar now. There simply is too much demand and not enough supply and electric rates are outrageous especially in winter. It doesn't surprise me that the Balsams or any company is supportive.


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## mbedle (Apr 27, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> The northern pass power is not scheduled to provide any power to northern NH or any of NH at all it is just transmission lines to feed Southern New England as far as I have read.



That is not correct - it will provide power to all of New England, terminating in Deerfield, NH. 

http://www.northernpass.us/project-overview.htm


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## mbedle (Apr 27, 2016)

Newpylong said:


> With the recent plan to bury all but a handfull of miles of transmission line and mandatory wholesale % of electric going to NH Utilities I am all for the Northern Pass. There is not enough natural gas into the region, coal has been priced out, and even the NIMBYs are fighting solar now. There simply is too much demand and not enough supply and electric rates are outrageous especially in winter. It doesn't surprise me that the Balsams or any company is supportive.



See the above link - only 60 miles will be buried, but it will use 160 miles of existing transmission lines or bury the lines, leaving only 32 miles of new cut area.


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## Smellytele (Apr 27, 2016)

mbedle said:


> That is not correct - it will provide power to all of New England, terminating in Deerfield, NH.
> 
> http://www.northernpass.us/project-overview.htm



New Hampshire already has a surplus of electricity that is produced and we do not need it.

If you are going to quote the people who want it I might as well quote those who don't...

http://www.nhmagazine.com/January-2014/Understanding-Northern-Pass/

*Is the power destined for New Hampshire?*
	New Hampshire already generates more electricity than it uses, and  projected electricity demand has been trending downward. Potential  demand for Northern Pass electricity in the future is in southern New  England.


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## freeski (Apr 27, 2016)

The Governor really put VT on the hook for some big money. Why were the politicians traveling to promote this? Do they just like to travel for the fun of it. Who paid? Getting rid of the "Q" is money well spent!


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## Smellytele (Apr 27, 2016)

freeski said:


> The Governor really put VT on the hook for some big money. Why were the politicians traveling to promote this? Do they just like to travel for the fun of it. Who paid? Getting rid of the "Q" is money well spent!



Posted in the wrong thread?


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## mbedle (Apr 27, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> New Hampshire already has a surplus of electricity that is produced and we do not need it.
> 
> If you are going to quote the people who want it I might as well quote those who don't...
> 
> ...



What about NH wanted cheaper electric?


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## Newpylong (Apr 27, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> New Hampshire already has a surplus of electricity that is produced and we do not need it.
> 
> If you are going to quote the people who want it I might as well quote those who don't...
> 
> ...




I recommend not getting data from "Friends of" and "Societies", etc.

It is best not to look at New Hampshire in a vacuum as not all of our electricity is purchased from NH sources, and our generating plants do not sell 100% to NH customers. That is just how the market works. Companies like National Grid, Liberty and the Coop do not have their own generating sources. On the other hand Eversource does have their own.

 The New England region is facing an electricity shortage regardless of what is happening here. NH has some of the highest electrical costs in the country and some of the lowest usage per capita. Source US Energy Administration. It will only get worse once Bow goes offline.


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## DoublePlanker (Apr 27, 2016)

Newpylong said:


> I recommend not getting data from "Friends of" and "Societies", etc.
> 
> It is best not to look at New Hampshire in a vacuum as not all of our electricity is purchased from NH sources, and our generating plants do not sell 100% to NH customers. That is just how the market works. Companies like National Grid, Liberty and the Coop do not have their own generating sources. On the other hand Eversource does have their own.
> 
> The New England region is facing an electricity shortage regardless of what is happening here. NH has some of the highest electrical costs in the country and some of the lowest usage per capita. Source US Energy Administration. It will only get worse once Bow goes offline.



+1

Electric rates a very high in New England and New Hampshire.  It can have an impact on businesses choosing to locate in another region.


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## Smellytele (Apr 27, 2016)

Newpylong said:


> I recommend not getting data from "Friends of" and "Societies", etc.



Is it best to get the data from the company who wants to put the lines in?


----------



## Northernflight (Apr 29, 2016)

When I was living briefly in Virginia I got to see what high energy DC lines looked like in the mountains. They absolutely gash the landscape and command view. The project as it was proposed running through the Whites would have greatly altered the Mountains. The Whites have a very unique feel to them and developments like the Northern Pass will alter it for the worse. The one good thing is that they are listening. Most of the route through the Whites is now proposed to be underground, although it is still above ground near Dixville Notch.

I do not see any real long term benefits for NH out of this project. The jobs it creates will only last a few years through construction. The power will not benefit the state and there are better options for bringing in more power. Hydro power can also be very devastating to the natural environment, not nearly as much as coal, but there is still a large toll on the rivers. I just don't see how the benefits of this project outweigh the environmental and social costs of implementing it for NH. I am all for development if it makes sense and has benefits for a region or large group of people, the Northern Pass does not benefit those it is affecting.


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## dlague (Apr 29, 2016)

Northernflight said:


> Hydro power can also be very devastating to the natural environment, not nearly as much as coal, but there is still a large toll on the rivers.



Funny, people complain about Wind Turbines, fields of Solar Panels, now Hydro.  I guess we need to stick to coal, oil, bio fuels and natural gas, people have complained about those sources for ever so it feels normal.


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## OldsnowboarderME (Apr 30, 2016)

Newpylong said:


> I recommend not getting data from "Friends of" and "Societies", etc.
> 
> It is best not to look at New Hampshire in a vacuum as not all of our electricity is purchased from NH sources, and our generating plants do not sell 100% to NH customers. That is just how the market works. Companies like National Grid, Liberty and the Coop do not have their own generating sources. On the other hand Eversource does have their own.
> 
> The New England region is facing an electricity shortage regardless of what is happening here. NH has some of the highest electrical costs in the country and some of the lowest usage per capita. Source US Energy Administration. It will only get worse once Bow goes offline.



Let me clear up a misconception here .. Eversource is not permitted to own any generating faclities under deregulation rules. The power company is in distribution only. All power plants in New England operated as merchant plants selling thir power by contract or on the spot market. New England power pool pretty much runs the show. The Northern-Pass will probably result in an early closure of Seabrook Station as it will never be able to compete in that market environment. That is why Vermont Yankee closed and now Pilgrim in 2019. Nuclear power plants as merchant power plants just don't make it in a deregulated economic environment.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 30, 2016)

OldsnowboarderME said:


> Nuclear power plants as merchant power plants just don't make it in a deregulated economic environment.



Why is that? I thought nuclear was one of the cheapest forms of power?


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## cdskier (Apr 30, 2016)

uphillklimber said:


> A couple years ago, I looked into the costs of power production (Not the billable rate, the actual cost) from first shovel in the ground until the final flower is planted at the end of the de-commissioning. What I learned was this:
> 
> Hydro                    3.3 cents per kWhr
> Nuclear                3.5 cents per kWhr
> ...



I suspect these numbers have changed lately. PSE&G here in NJ was just issued a permit from the Nuclear Regulatory Commission to build another nuclear power plant at one of their sites, however PSE&G stated they have no intention on building it at the moment even with the permit. The reason they cited is that energy costs have significantly changed in the past few years since they originally filed for the permit. Here's a quote from PSE&G: "But then a new influx of cheap natural gas from the Marcellus shale region of Pennsylvania made it far more profitable to burn gas than coal in power plants, or even to operate nuclear facilities." The permit is valid for 20 years so they have plenty of time to decide to build something and ultimately they still want to if the costs make sense again.


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## yeggous (Apr 30, 2016)

It's more complicated that cost per kilowatt-hour. The prices vary throughout the day so a generator can still be economical even if it is expensive so long as you can quickly modulate the output or if it's production peaks when rates are typically high. This is one reason why solar is economical. Coal and nuclear cannot be easily throttled so it is harder for them to make money.


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## DoublePlanker (Apr 30, 2016)

Wow.  I thought nuclear was the most expensive.  Just look at the cost of Seabrook.  There are some interesting R & D projects going on including some funded by Bill Gates.  New reactor types that can use spent fuel from legacy reactors.


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## JoeB-Z (Apr 30, 2016)

Hydro can look great but they do weird things ecologically. I have a place on the Connecticut River near Weathersfield Bow, VT. The river is really low this spring. Last Saturday night the TransCanada power people dropped the river TWO more feet to make money. That would be at Wilder Dam. Fish are spawning but what do they care. I have never seen the river this low at this time of year.


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## JoeB-Z (Apr 30, 2016)

Hydro can look great but they do weird things ecologically. I have a place on the Connecticut River near Weathersfield Bow, VT. The river is really low this spring. Last Saturday night the TransCanada power people dropped the river TWO more feet to make money. That would be at Wilder Dam or Bellows Falls. Fish are spawning but what do they care. I have never seen the river this low at this time of year.


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## machski (May 1, 2016)

Look at all the opinions about different energy sources.  Nothing is perfect by itself.  The only things ng that might is controlled nuclear fusion, but we have yet to figure out how to harness this energy process.  Until then, it will take a little of everything to try and balance our needs.  Northern pass is one way to balance that as hydro Quebec is quite different from your smaller hydro stations/systems just due to the source (St. Lawrence) and it's size/volume flows.


----------



## deadheadskier (May 1, 2016)

The St. Lawrence isn't actually a large part of their operation. I was curious what the sources were and had assumed the St. Lawrence would be the primary source, but that doesn't appear to be the case.

http://www.hydroquebec.com/generation/centrale-hydroelectrique.html


----------



## machski (May 1, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> The St. Lawrence isn't actually a large part of their operation. I was curious what the sources were and had assumed the St. Lawrence would be the primary source, but that doesn't appear to be the case.
> 
> http://www.hydroquebec.com/generation/centrale-hydroelectrique.html



True enough, in fact it looks like the La Grande watershed is the basis for a large majority of their KW production.


----------



## x10003q (May 1, 2016)

Hydro Quebec has excess of power. It seems the entire Romaine complex is scheduled to come on line over the next few years (1 or 2 units out of 4 are operating). The cost of the electricity from the Romaine complex is higher than the selling price.


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## OldsnowboarderME (May 2, 2016)

I believe one day we will go full circle with nuclear power and will build thorium fueled reactors instead of uranium ones. The nuclear fuel should have always been thorium but you can't make bombs out of it.


----------



## OldsnowboarderME (May 2, 2016)

Nuclear power plants were designed to be base load plants running at full capacity all the time. This was the way to go when the utility had to own the means of production. With all the cheap shale gas, gas plants became the WalMarts of the power industry. Little environmental regulation when compared to coal and nuclear. They easily under bided everyone else. The only reason wind power exists is due to government subsidies. NextEra Energy is the largest holder of wind powered assets and they are in it only for the subsidies. Without subsidies wind power could never be profitable. When the subsidies go away so will the wind power industry. Wind power output has to be stored in batteries and then inverted to be outputted on an electric grid, no different than solar power. Just the nature of the beast.


----------



## yeggous (May 2, 2016)

uphillklimber said:


> They are never very clear how much of the solar and wind power is paid for by John Q. Taxpayer. As a stand alone self sufficient power source, I am almost certain they would not make it. Shucks, even with the subsidies, they are two of the most expensive ways to produce it even now, after decades of research and improvement.



Solar is absolutely economical in most parts of the country, even without tax credits. Yes it is one of the most expensive forms of electricity of you judge by the unit cost. It's main advantage is that it's production peak closer follows the demand and price. Solar output peaks on sunny days in the summer when the spot price is highest. That way it can command a premium and still be economical.

Wind is a tougher source. It's production peaks at night when prices are low. It's not unheard of for electricity prices to go negative at night in areas with lots of wind. In these areas wind power provides more generation that the market needs, and at zero marginal cost. In this situation it can be cheaper for goal and nuclear plants to pay people to take the extra power rather than cycle the plant.


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## bigbog (May 2, 2016)

OldsnowboarderME said:


> I believe one day we will go full circle with nuclear power and will build thorium fueled reactors instead of uranium ones. The nuclear fuel should have always been thorium but you can't make bombs out of it.




Any fuel, except for uranium, would take more employees = more $$$ spent to develop the processes.  Fact is the NRC goes with the same model as US corporate standards = spend as less $$$ as possible to enhance quarterly profits.  That's it!  I've worked for the Dept. of Energy in the past.  They're nothing more than a normal American short-sighted corporation.


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## thetrailboss (May 2, 2016)

Interesting.  Did not know that Northern Pass and Balsams were somehow related. 

And I am wondering how Les is going to fund this project now that EB-5 investment programs with resorts may not be a viable option moving forward because of the Q/Jay debacle.


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## Smellytele (May 2, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> Interesting.  Did not know that Northern Pass and Balsams were somehow related.
> 
> And I am wondering how Les is going to fund this project now that EB-5 investment programs with resorts may not be a viable option moving forward because of the Q/Jay debacle.



Didn't know he mentioned EB-5


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## thetrailboss (May 2, 2016)

Smellytele said:


> Didn't know he mentioned EB-5



I think a while back that this might have been an option.  I thought I saw an article saying that this might be one of their routes for money.  I really think that Les, with his ASC downfall, will have a really, really hard time getting traditional capital for his project.


----------



## Newpylong (May 2, 2016)

I have yet to see EB-5 mentioned officially for the Balsams.


----------



## DoublePlanker (May 2, 2016)

Prior to Les coming on board, there were some articles about using eb-5.  But since Les took over, I have not seen any mention of that.


----------



## machski (May 2, 2016)

Come on, failed CEO's always seem to come back to the front of the pack and do just fine (in their eyes anyway).  New corporate structure around him, Les will do fine.  Granted MeSYS is not huge, but it's not like he just went into retirement.  Their is investment money out there to get.  And with the state supporting and partially backing, the money will flow.


----------



## thetrailboss (May 2, 2016)

DoublePlanker said:


> Prior to Les coming on board, there were some articles about using eb-5.  But since Les took over, I have not seen any mention of that.



OK.  That makes sense.  



machski said:


> Come on, failed CEO's always seem to come back to the front of the pack and do just fine (in their eyes anyway).  New corporate structure around him, Les will do fine.  Granted MeSYS is not huge, but it's not like he just went into retirement.  Their is investment money out there to get.  And with the state supporting and partially backing, the money will flow.



So you think that it has been long enough since ASC?  Admittedly though the ASC downfall was a complicated disaster that was due to a number of factors other than Les.


----------



## machski (May 2, 2016)

thetrailboss said:


> OK.  That makes sense.
> 
> 
> 
> So you think that it has been long enough since ASC?  Admittedly though the ASC downfall was a complicated disaster that was due to a number of factors other than Les.



If it's been a couple of months, yes.  All kidding aside, he was dismissed from ASC several years before the eventual death of the company.  So yes, I think more than enough time has elapsed.  Look at some of the areas he created (not bought).  Park West was a hidden gem which was polished enough to make Vail desire it.  And Sunday River, well there are haters but it is the second biggest by skier visits in New England today.  I personally think he and his team will be able to find financing.  Banks and lenders may not be falling over  themselves, but it will be accessible.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 28, 2016)

Bump.  Looks like things are progressing.

http://www.caledonianrecord.com/new...cle_b878acf4-0164-5de1-9375-15b2f3820311.html



LANCASTER — Work on the trails and lifts at the Balsams Grand Resort’s Wilderness Ski Area could begin in the coming months, a spokesman for the resort’s redevelopment team said Wednesday.

On Tuesday, developers met with the Coos County Planning Board in Lancaster to discuss the site plan application for the expansion of the ski area.

While the board did not deem the application complete during the nearly four-hour meeting, there was a meeting of the minds and the development team will be submitting more information, planning board member Leon Rideout said Wednesday.


“We’ve never done a site plan review for a ski area so we’re trying to do our due diligence, but move the project along, too, so it’s not held up,” he said. “There are a few more details to come in and I think we’ll be moving forward with it. Both sides now have a clear understanding of what it takes to be complete.”

The next gathering of the board and development team could be in late August.

The hope is that at the next meeting the board will deem the application complete, said Rideout.

The estimated $143 million redevelopment aims to make the Balsams the economic driver of the region and restore the hundreds of jobs lost when resort closed in 2011, and also add more jobs in the coming years. It would be the largest economic development project in the county.

“We keep making progress,” said Rideout. “I know the progress is not as fast as some people would like it to be, but the board and the developers are cooperating with each other.”

The development team on Tuesday did receive positive feedback from county planners in terms of specific items planners need to deem the application complete, said Balsams project spokesman Scott Tranchemontagne.

At the present time, the team is only asking the board to review the plans for the trails, lifts and snow-making operation, he said.

“We want to keep the process moving forward and the trails and lifts take the longest time to work on,” said Tranchemontagne. “We want to start the trails and lifts as soon as possible, this fall, and go back later with the parking and buildings.”

The buildings that will be reviewed later include the Wilderness and Mid-Mountain lodges.

“We look at every one of these meetings as progress,” said Tranchemontagne.

In June, county planners approved a site plan for the renovations to the historic Dix and Hampshire houses in the Balsams village. More site plans for other projects in the village, including a spa, will be submitted at later dates.

The expanded ski area is projected to open for the winter of 2017-2018.


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## Jully (Jul 28, 2016)

No way that opens by 2017-2018


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## Mapnut (Jul 29, 2016)

I agree. I hope they are planning to revive the existing ski area first.


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## thetrailboss (Jul 29, 2016)

Jully said:


> No way that opens by 2017-2018



Remember this is Les talking....


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## ss20 (Jul 29, 2016)

March 2, 2014.  Same thread, post #14.  My position hasn't changed.



ss20 said:


> This is a fake article, right? :lol:
> 
> Quadrupling the size?!  That's ambitious to say the least.  Otten may have made Sunday River the mega-mountain it is now, but could a project like that get done today?  With all the economic and environmental concerns?  Not likely.
> 
> I'd be surprised if he even get's the existing area back open.


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## Newpylong (Jul 29, 2016)

Whether it gets built or not won't come down to permitting. Things actually get done in areas that can't afford to pick and choose businesses as they see fit.


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## skiberg (Jul 30, 2016)

Tell that to Hydro Canada and Northern pass. 


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## Newpylong (Jul 30, 2016)

It's Hydro-Quebec and the Balsams redevelopment does not depend on more power from the Northern Pass - it is just being used as leverage sadly.


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## dlague (Jul 30, 2016)

Newpylong said:


> It's Hydro-Quebec and the Balsams redevelopment does not depend on more power from the Northern Pass - it is just being used as leverage sadly.



The Northern Pass will not provide power anywhere near Northern NH.  Balsam will get power distributed by NHEC.  Used to work for them and NHEC was constantly up there helping with electric delivery plans.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 30, 2016)

dlague said:


> The Northern Pass will not provide power anywhere near Northern NH.  Balsam will get power distributed by NHEC.  Used to work for them and NHEC was constantly up there helping with electric delivery plans.



As you used to work for an electric utility, I'm curious to hear your take on Northern Pass. I've done little research on the subject. I have spent a lot of time in the Lancaster, Colebrook and Berlin areas for work in the last couple years. Seems most folks are against it judging by all the signs in yards.


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## dlague (Jul 31, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> As you used to work for an electric utility, I'm curious to hear your take on Northern Pass. I've done little research on the subject. I have spent a lot of time in the Lancaster, Colebrook and Berlin areas for work in the last couple years. Seems most folks are against it judging by all the signs in yards.



Well it will bring cheaper power to southern New England.  Technically, New England is somewhat power starved because no wants bigger natural gas lines either.  Some thing has to give eventually.  I do not have any strong feelings for or against it.


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## SIKSKIER (Aug 2, 2016)

Different take on this article.
http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=461


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## Los (Aug 5, 2016)

uphillklimber said:


> From the Article:
> According to the Colebrook Chronicle, the developers have yet to apply for the necessary state alteration-of-terrain permit.
> 
> This is probably true, but it does not show the whole scenario. I am involved with a local boat launch on a local pond. There are many permits that must be obtained. Some of these permits can not come until others are obtained. (Try to get a building permit for a house in this town, you'll need to already have gained the plumbing permit. ) We are waiting for the wetlands permit to come forward, and the state has 60 to 90 days to act on it, and they are taking all of it. Backlog, lack of staff, being careful and studious, giving all objectors the full opportunity to object.... the reasons go on and on. It doesn't matter, the bottom line is the permits take a certain amount of time and you in many cases, you don't the second permit until the first one is obtained. I'm sure when they say "[FONT=Georgia, Arial] many items are still considered missing" that they certainly are missing some of he permits. This is not get a single building permit and bring in the excavator. Government bureaucracy is a reality, and part of the process. If a man lobbies someone to smooth out the process, others will certainly look at it as "[/FONT]reportedly pressuring local elected officials to drop their opposition".
> ...



I agree with your overall point, but just to clarify, in NH a Planning Board cannot make their review or and determination contingent on first obtaining other state or federal approvals, although they can certainly make it a condition of approval. I believe that's a relatively recent statutory amendment. Here's the language from the statute: "An application shall not be considered incomplete solely because it is dependent upon the submission of an application to or the issuance of permits or approvals from other state or federal governmental bodies; however, the planning board may condition approval upon the receipt of such permits or approvals[.]" RSA 676:4, I(b). 

Whatever. It doesn't change your overall point, which I agree with.


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## DoublePlanker (Sep 4, 2016)

Nothing new.   But its an interview with Les  http://www.wmur.com/money/150yearold-balsams-resort-to-live-again/41509610


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## thetrailboss (Sep 6, 2016)

DoublePlanker said:


> Nothing new.   But its an interview with Les  http://www.wmur.com/money/150yearold-balsams-resort-to-live-again/41509610



Just watched it.  Very interesting.


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## xwhaler (Sep 23, 2016)

Balsams Marketing Movie!

https://thebalsamsresort.com/balsams-movie/


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## xwhaler (Sep 23, 2016)

This is truly something else

https://thebalsamsresort.com/vision/ski-expansion/


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## from_the_NEK (Sep 23, 2016)

xwhaler said:


> Balsams Marketing Movie!
> 
> https://thebalsamsresort.com/balsams-movie/



Wow, that really gave the nostalgia muscles a workout.

Double wow on the 1.5x vertical exaggeration on their ski trail overlay making the mountain look look like it is 5421' tall vs 3490' :roll:. 

Comparison of images in the video (right side) with the same angle on Google Earth on my computer (left side) with no vertical exaggeration and with 1.5.

1st View -
No vert exaggeration:






1.5x Exaggeration:






Second View -
No exag:





1.5 exag:






And is that a skier bridge across Route 26?!:idea:


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## bdfreetuna (Sep 23, 2016)

This country needs more Les Ottens.


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## Newpylong (Sep 23, 2016)

godspeed.


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## Mapnut (Sep 23, 2016)

Though I'm a stickler for vertical drop accuracy, I have no problem with the vertical exaggeration of the graphics in the video, because that's how it would look to you when you're there amid the mountains.


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## deadheadskier (Sep 23, 2016)

I'm sure they will take some ribbing for their exaggerated vertical numbers ala Someday Bigger.


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## Jully (Sep 24, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm sure they will take some ribbing for their exaggerated vertical numbers ala Someday Bigger.



It's got more vertical than Wildcat you haven't heard!?!


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## DoublePlanker (Nov 14, 2016)

unionleader article
http://www.unionleader.com/article/20161113/NEWHAMPSHIRE0501/161119732/0/NEWS07

Apparently, $25m needed from condo sales.  They are at $21m from 240 people.
State vote is soon for the public assistance.


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## Smellytele (Nov 15, 2016)

DoublePlanker said:


> unionleader article
> http://www.unionleader.com/article/20161113/NEWHAMPSHIRE0501/161119732/0/NEWS07
> 
> Apparently, $25m needed from condo sales.  They are at $21m from 240 people.
> State vote is soon for the public assistance.


 from those numbers above the condos are only going for 87500. with 45 condos or so to go


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## Mapnut (Nov 15, 2016)

I'd assume those are deposits.


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## yeggous (Nov 15, 2016)

Mapnut said:


> I'd assume those are deposits.



Meh, really? Real estate up there is cheap.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 16, 2016)

http://www.pressherald.com/2016/12/...betting-big-on-a-climate-change-proof-resort/

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## Jully (Dec 16, 2016)

deadheadskier said:


> http://www.pressherald.com/2016/12/...betting-big-on-a-climate-change-proof-resort/
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app



HAHAHA that is quite the article. Cool to see it still getting press though.


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## wtcobb (Dec 16, 2016)

Baffin Island Resort, an Otten property with 24,000 acres of skiing and 4,000 feet of vertical, coming 2021.


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## Mapnut (Dec 16, 2016)

Just a couple of quibbles with that gung-ho artic1e: 1. I hardly think Vail Resorts bought Whistler-Blackcomb as global warming insurance, remembering the Vancouver Olympics. W-B's summit is lower than Vail's base. 2. Also, the Balsams is hardly high-altitude, at 1400 to 3400 feet. That's about average for major New England mountains.


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## wtcobb (Dec 16, 2016)

Mapnut said:


> Also, the Balsams is hardly high-altitude, at 1400 to 3400 feet.



I think this was confusing altitude with latitude.


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## Mapnut (Dec 16, 2016)

Quote from the article: "While lower-elevation areas wilt, the lifts on higher ground will keep on humming."


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## wtcobb (Dec 16, 2016)

I know - confusion from the author, not you. Given that Balsams has an average elevation at best, most arguments/spin for the advantages of the resort point to its northern latitude for picking up and maintaining more snowpack. This author seems to confuse elevation and latitude as equal and exchangeable, among other problems.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 16, 2016)

Guys

It's going to be 2500 acres and 2000 vertical and one of the only open areas in New England in 50 years. LBO says so!

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## wtcobb (Dec 16, 2016)

I need to see a graph using phallic skis to differentiate between resorts before I believe it.


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## deadheadskier (Dec 16, 2016)

I think if I was the reporter I'd be like, "Dude. Didn't you once own Sugarloaf? You do realize it is both further north and at a higher elevation than the Balsams."

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## bdfreetuna (Dec 16, 2016)

So when the lower altitude pods are under water from global warming (in 2-10 years) they will still operate any remaining higher elevation pods.

The article was very clear, not sure what the confusion is all about. Those dummies shoulda put the new hotel on the summit though!


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## wtcobb (Dec 16, 2016)

Soon.


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## wtcobb (Jan 6, 2017)

> Additionally, the woods have not been cut in some ares for over 100 years, and you have these huge majestic oak trees growing there, spread way out, and nothing growing under them, so you will have some awesome tree skiing.



This is definitely true. When hiking Table Rock and the cascades I noted how wide open the trees are there. It would make for some great glades without much work.


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## x10003q (Jan 6, 2017)

uphillklimber said:


> I was a ski club meet and greet last night, and Les Otten was in attendance (regular guy BTW). Anyways, he was introduced and after dinner, he spoke for some 10 minutes. It is clear he believes this will work, and listening to him, .... well, he is convincing. The proof will be in the pudding, of course.
> 
> He said several interesting things. Permitting is pretty well done, financing is pretty well along, and he hopes to have this up and running in 2-3 years. 18 million in condos shares are already pre-sold. (I wish I had recorded all he said.)
> 
> ...



Thanks for great update;  I hope you didn't have to buy your shirt back from him.  

I would love to see how he defines the "$18 million in condo shares already presold". Does he count that $100 deposit as a sold unit? In his best market, the Canadian dollar continues to hang at $.76US. 

I hope it works, but it is hard to see the market for The Balsams.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 6, 2017)

I have a real hard time with the comment that there was 4' of snow atop the mountain end of last April.  Maybe prior years, but not last year.   I don't doubt that Balsams gets the most snow in NH and retains it very well. But not buying they had that deep of snowpack end of April or maybe at any point at all last season.


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## Smellytele (Jan 6, 2017)

uphillklimber said:


> Using his Sunday River ruler?



Saying he used to lie in his SR days on the snow report I guess.


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## Jully (Jan 6, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> Saying he used to lie in his SR days on the snow report I guess.



Shocking


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## Smellytele (Jan 6, 2017)

Jully said:


> Shocking



Bob is an SR homer so I had to say it lightly so his head wouldn't explode.


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## xlr8r (Jan 6, 2017)

It seems like the Les might go about making the same mistakes again.  The reason ASC failed was He built too much too fast, before he had an understanding of what works and doesn't work at the new properties ASC purchased.  Sunday River, is the only development Les built that saw steady changes and improvements for a number of years, that kept up with its increasing market share.  

Trying to build all of Balsms at once would repeat what happened with the Canyons.  There he also took a small ski area with low skier visits and tried to build it all up in just a couple years.  But the skier visits remained very low in comparison the build up and size of the resort until Vail got it and merged it with Park City.

I still do not see this succeeding.  Experts aren't going to go there when it is harder to get to than Jay Peak, and Beginners aren't going to drive past Bretton Woods to go there.


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## bdfreetuna (Jan 7, 2017)

I would go but it kind of looks from the trail plan layouts that it's gonna be another Sunday River. How about cutting some classic winding trails instead of taking a white-out pen to a topo map?


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## 2Planker (Jan 8, 2017)

I was taking that Barker Top Shack Snow Drift measurement in the early 90's....  Les' inflation skills started way before ASC was formed.

Reminds me, he still owes me $20 from when the NP Deck BBQ didn't accept his CC - too funny.....


----------



## machski (Jan 8, 2017)

Well, I think the rapid build out is required if the Balsams is to succeed.  Many have noted the distance and drive time.  F you don't offer much at the start, who will go?  But if suddenly you open with 600 acres of terrain, multiple pods and lifts, many may venture to investigate something new.  Add the spa, promised foodie stuff and the tranquility of Dixville notch, it could be a unique draw.  Tremblant is far away from most US locations and not really a much better mountain than what is closer to get to, yet they do draw well from the Eastern US.  Why?  Because they created an experience fairly unique in the East.  Balsams will succeed if they create a unique nitch that differs from the overall experience at most other resorts.  May not speak to many of us here, but there are segments where it will.  Time will tell if they pull this off.


----------



## freeski (Jan 8, 2017)

I wonder how this effected Saddleback?


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## ironhippy (Jan 9, 2017)

machski said:


> Well, I think the rapid build out is required if the Balsams is to succeed.  Many have noted the distance and drive time.  F you don't offer much at the start, who will go?  But if suddenly you open with 600 acres of terrain, multiple pods and lifts, many may venture to investigate something new.  Add the spa, promised foodie stuff and the tranquility of Dixville notch, it could be a unique draw.  Tremblant is far away from most US locations and not really a much better mountain than what is closer to get to, yet they do draw well from the Eastern US.  Why?  Because they created an experience fairly unique in the East.  Balsams will succeed if they create a unique nitch that differs from the overall experience at most other resorts.  May not speak to many of us here, but there are segments where it will.  Time will tell if they pull this off.



Tremblant is 2 hours north of Montreal though, they'd probably do ok without the Eastern US skiers (obviously not with their current model, I'm just saying, they have lots of skiers in the region)


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## Edd (Jan 9, 2017)

ironhippy said:


> Tremblant is 2 hours north of Montreal..



Also, it's a 65 minute plane ride from Toronto.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 9, 2017)

Tremblant has a commercial airport? I did not know that

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## VTKilarney (Jan 9, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Tremblant has a commercial airport? I did not know that
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app



Yup.  They even used to have commercial service from the New York city area.  Tremblant has a lot going for it.  There really isn't as nice of a ski village in the east.  My only gripe is that it can get insanely crowded.

Here is the flight info:
https://www.tremblant.ca/plan/getting-here/direct-flights-and-shuttle-service-to-tremblant


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## x10003q (Jan 9, 2017)

ironhippy said:


> Tremblant is 2 hours north of Montreal though, they'd probably do ok without the Eastern US skiers (obviously not with their current model, I'm just saying, they have lots of skiers in the region)



Over 5 million people within 2 hours from the Montreal and Ottawa metro areas and about 1/2 the 5 million are within 1:30. Anybody have a link to the percentage of US skiers at Tremblant?


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## VTKilarney (Jan 9, 2017)

Tremblant is also really busy in the summer.  Lots of lakes, bicycling, etc.  

I compare it to Stowe in that regard.  It's a true multi-season resort town.


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## MadMadWorld (Jan 9, 2017)

uphillklimber said:


> He pointed out the pros with going forward. As of last night, the Balsams have 105" of snow, and he said that was not measured with the ruler he used to use for the Sunday River snow reports! End of Last April, there was 4 feet of snow pack atop the mountain. Basically, lots of natural snow. Additionally, the woods have not been cut in some ares for over 100 years, and you have these huge majestic oak trees growing there, spread way out, and nothing growing under them, so you will have some awesome tree skiing.



Hmm that smells of old growth forest. Massachusetts tree huggers shut down Wachusett expansion because of that a decade ago. Granted it wasn't on the same scale but hopefully NH is less uppity. 

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## Mapnut (Jan 10, 2017)

If you look at aerial photography, there's been a lot of logging in the east-facing bowl where the best skiing looks to be. There's even a huge clear-cut that might be skiable.


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## Edd (Jan 16, 2017)

New article. This one is Les-centric. 

http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/article/2017/01/15/les-otten-balsams-ski-resort/


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## eatskisleep (Jan 17, 2017)

Edd said:


> New article. This one is Les-centric.
> 
> http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/article/2017/01/15/les-otten-balsams-ski-resort/




Great article. People drive 5 hours from
Boston area to Jay for good snow, this could be similar but in NH. If anyone can do it, it's Les.


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## Jully (Jan 17, 2017)

Edd said:


> New article. This one is Les-centric.
> 
> http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/article/2017/01/15/les-otten-balsams-ski-resort/



I liked the Les centric aspect. Definitely played to his ego a bit. My bet is he likes being portrayed as a fringe type risk taker and obviously a builder. 

I look forward to following what he is able to do.


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## Morwax (Feb 1, 2017)

They just need another 24 million in deposits for unbuilt
 condos and they will start cleaning the place up.. or sell out to hydro quebec


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## DoublePlanker (Aug 4, 2017)

Latest news
http://www.unionleader.com/local--c...-construction-start-slated-for-fall--20170804


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## Jully (Aug 4, 2017)

DoublePlanker said:


> Latest news
> http://www.unionleader.com/local--c...-construction-start-slated-for-fall--20170804



Will be interested to see what 'construction beginning' actually results in this fall, if anything at all happens. Sounds like Les may be pushing for a 2018-2019 opening of the ski area.


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## machski (Aug 4, 2017)

Jully said:


> Will be interested to see what 'construction beginning' actually results in this fall, if anything at all happens. Sounds like Les may be pushing for a 2018-2019 opening of the ski area.


With the deep pockets at Saddleback not likely kicking that into full gear until 2018-19 season, Les has to be pushing for that now I would think.  Can't wait and let any more potential market share slip out.

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## Morwax (Aug 5, 2017)

What could possibly  go wrong


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## Cat in January (Aug 28, 2017)

I was in Errol this past weekend and was told the elementary school has 4 students.  Folks there very much want this to go through.


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## ThinkSnow (Dec 22, 2017)

https://thebalsamsresort.com/balsams-resort-application-submitted-to-nh-bfa/


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## machski (Feb 1, 2018)

Getting close now, targeting groundbreaking in April.
http://www.unionleader.com/article/20180128/NEWS02/180129381&template=mobileart

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## ss20 (Feb 1, 2018)

I'll believe when shovels are in the ground...


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## AdironRider (Feb 1, 2018)

ss20 said:


> I'll believe when shovels are in the ground...



Considering its been three years of consistent progress tackling at least 11 permit applications, I feel pretty confident they are going forward with this. New Hampshire is guaranteeing the financing for over 28 million.


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## raisingarizona (Feb 1, 2018)

AdironRider said:


> Considering its been three years of consistent progress tackling at least 11 permit applications, I feel pretty confident they are going forward with this. New Hampshire is guaranteeing the financing for over 28 million.



3 years is like a day in government time. I agree, this is pretty much a done deal.


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## ThinkSnow (Feb 20, 2018)

Visited The Balsams on Saturday snowshoeing the XC trails & also Table Rock trail.  Sweet to have the place all to ourselves (and the sledders traversing the property) with miles of virgin snow.  It appears they're also having frequent visits from prospective buyers at the hotel as well.


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## machski (Mar 29, 2018)

Well, another hang up this time from the state business board.  Not sure if this speaks ill of the project or more to the state of affairs within NH Government.  A lot of big projects haven't been getting through state boards for a variety of reason as of late.
http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=669

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## Jully (Mar 29, 2018)

machski said:


> Well, another hang up this time from the state business board.  Not sure if this speaks ill of the project or more to the state of affairs within NH Government.  A lot of big projects haven't been getting through state boards for a variety of reason as of late.
> http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=669
> 
> Sent from my SM-T900 using AlpineZone mobile app



Interesting. Definitely not associated with anything the project has done, unless they've angered the board somehow.

I would be really shocked if this thing got stopped because of this. Seems to me like all the legwork has been done at this point. First time I've seen all the sources for funding in one place before. Pretty interesting to see the hodgepodge of stuff Les has thrown together.


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## machski (Mar 29, 2018)

^^^^Yup

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## Killingtime (Mar 30, 2018)

Gotta give Les Otten some credit though. At an age when most men are just worried about not having their prostate gland fall out when they go to the bathroom, the guy it building a ski resort basically from scratch. And an ambitious resort at that. I hope it works out for him and his investors.


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## Mreally (Apr 13, 2018)

raisingarizona said:


> 3 years is like a day in government time. I agree, this is pretty much a done deal.



BFA is not going to come up with the backing delaying the vote (again) as of last night.  James Key Wallace instead want to use BFA resources to fund out of state projects - take a look at SB537 - Gov & State will not back this Balsams project when they can make friends in other states.

NH Taxpayers do everything else out of state - gamble in Rhode Island and Connecticut, Beaches at the Cape and MA, Bikes in Maine, Ski in Vermont --- Now we will fund out of state projects instead of our own!


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## ss20 (Aug 27, 2018)

Just put a fork in this thing already...what a waste of time and money to get this total fantasy off the ground...

https://thebalsamsresort.com/balsams-withdraws-bfa-application/



> DIXVILLE, N.H. (August 27th, 2018)
> 
> “The Balsams Resort redevelopment team, through its lead lender Service Credit Union (SCU), has withdrawn its application for a loan guarantee through the New Hampshire Business Finance Authority (NH BFA). Despite collectively working with all parties for several months to find a collaborative solution to advance a $28 million Tax Assessment Bond with a State of New Hampshire Loan Guarantee, the conditions ultimately required by the Authority do not allow SCU and the Balsams to proceed.
> 
> ...






ss20 said:


> I'll believe when shovels are in the ground...





machski said:


> Getting close now, targeting groundbreaking in April.
> http://www.unionleader.com/article/20180128/NEWS02/180129381&template=mobileart
> 
> Sent from my SM-T900 using AlpineZone mobile app





AdironRider said:


> Considering its been three years of consistent progress tackling at least 11 permit applications, I feel pretty confident they are going forward with this. New Hampshire is guaranteeing the financing for over 28 million.





raisingarizona said:


> 3 years is like a day in government time. I agree, this is pretty much a done deal.


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## sull1102 (Aug 27, 2018)

Yeah sounds like Les is looking to walk away and let this thing just die already.

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## ThinkSnow (Aug 28, 2018)

Not exactly

https://www.bostonglobe.com/busines...ers-setback/m9EPAmTAH1uXFA1mwEYznI/story.html


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## Smellytele (Aug 28, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> Not exactly
> 
> https://www.bostonglobe.com/busines...ers-setback/m9EPAmTAH1uXFA1mwEYznI/story.html



Damn can't read it as I have passed the free reads and need to subscribe - Damn Capitalists!


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## Jully (Aug 28, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> Not exactly
> 
> https://www.bostonglobe.com/busines...ers-setback/m9EPAmTAH1uXFA1mwEYznI/story.html



Not walking away, but appears to not have a clear plan B lined up without the state help.


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## Killingtime (Aug 28, 2018)

"In a statement, BFA chairman Dick Anagnost said that after reviewing Otten’s business plan the agency grew concerned it might be putting public money at risk. Otten “wasn’t willing to meet the normal and customary conditions that are required as part of the regular application process,” he said. “We could not in good conscience risk taxpayer funds for a private venture with no assurance of repayment in the event the project was not successful.”

Probably wanted Les to put more skin in the game in the way of personal guarantees and Les didn't want to do it. Can't say I blame the NH BFA. Otten's track record with running ski resorts profitably isn't the greatest.


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## ss20 (Aug 28, 2018)

uphillklimber said:


> I hate to say this, but I think this is just a hiccup, same as any projected project will have. Is it bad enough to deep six this? I don't know.



Even if it does somehow get financed...it's a mega-resort in quite literally the middle of nowhere.  It's been discussed for pages upon pages of how this won't work.


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## ThinkSnow (Aug 28, 2018)

ss20 said:


> Even if it does somehow get financed...it's a mega-resort in quite literally the middle of nowhere.  It's been discussed for pages upon pages of how this won't work.



What pages upon pages are you referring to?  Sure its no Thunder Ridge, the plan appears to be a better version of what it was previously-- an all inclusive destination resort.  Being in the middle of nowhere was never an issue, considering it was in operation since just after the Civil War, until the current owners couldn't make it work.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 28, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> What pages upon pages are you referring to?  Sure its no Thunder Ridge, the plan appears to be a better version of what it was previously-- an all inclusive destination resort.  Being in the middle of nowhere was never an issue, considering it was in operation since just after the Civil War, until the current owners couldn't make it work.


It was essentially a hobby for the old owner and lost money most years it was in operation.  There is a business networking group for historic hotels in New England that a friend of mine is involved with.  He knew the old ownership well.  

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## Jully (Aug 28, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> What pages upon pages are you referring to?  Sure its no Thunder Ridge, the plan appears to be a better version of what it was previously-- an all inclusive destination resort.  Being in the middle of nowhere was never an issue, considering it was in operation since just after the Civil War, until the current owners couldn't make it work.



I'm not sold this place will become Sunday River 2.0, but I'm far from the camp of this idea is incredibly foolish. I would not invest my own money in it though.

Now seeing DHS's post makes me more skeptical about the viability of the resort itself though. I had previously thought it got by and the old ownership got older and wanted to retire. Place was really outdated too, right?


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## machski (Aug 28, 2018)

I know our friends who put down a deposit are growing tired of all the non starts and delays.  It was already suppose to be open back when they put their $ down.  Would not be surprised if they move to get it back.  If a lot of the depositors do the same, that will likely deep six this thing for good. 
 As for the State, I think they are pretty dumb at this point.  I say that because they have already sunk $$ into this thing in the form of Highway upgrades and prep in Dixville Notch.  Hell, they already built the damn tunnel for the snow cats under the highway.

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## x10003q (Aug 28, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> What pages upon pages are you referring to?  Sure its no Thunder Ridge, the plan appears to be a better version of what it was previously-- an all inclusive destination resort.  Being in the middle of nowhere was never an issue, considering it was in operation since just after the Civil War, until the current owners couldn't make it work.



Being in the middle of nowhere wasn't an issue when train travel was king and only the rich had air conditioners. People would escape the summer heat in the cities for vacations at The Balsams. Check out Saddleback if you want to see what happens to a ski resort in the middle of nowhere.


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## Smellytele (Aug 28, 2018)

x10003q said:


> Being in the middle of nowhere wasn't an issue when train travel was king and only the rich had air conditioners. People would escape the summer heat in the cities for vacations at The Balsams. Check out Saddleback if you want to see what happens to a ski resort in the middle of nowhere.



Well Sugarloaf is also in the middle of nowhere...


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## ss20 (Aug 28, 2018)

I can see a modest development with a small hotel, a few condo complexes, one lodge, 6-10 lifts...but anything beyond that I fail to see the demand.  

As a Killington skier I see this a lot...lots and lots of terrain, lifts, lodges, and infrastructure...but how much of it is being used midweek?  Lifts are sitting idle, food courts in the lodges don't open, rental guys are on their phones with full racks of skis.  Most infrastructure is operating well-under capacity all but the busiest days of the year.  Balsams is further and even more grand in scope than Killington.


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## Killingtime (Aug 28, 2018)

Gotta wonder how much the failure of American Skiing Company is weighing on the recent events. Do you want to be the politician who signs off on millions of dollars in loan guarantees to Les Otten after he blew through a very large amount of investor money just a decade ago? ASC came public at $18 a share with a market cap of $245 mil. We all know how it wound up.


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## benski (Aug 28, 2018)

Killingtime said:


> Gotta wonder how much the failure of American Skiing Company is weighing on the recent events. Do you want to be the politician who signs off on millions of dollars in loan guarantees to Les Otten after he blew through a very large amount of investor money just a decade ago? ASC came public at $18 a share with a market cap of $245 mil. We all know how it wound up.



That is less sketchy than the president.


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## machski (Aug 28, 2018)

Killingtime said:


> Gotta wonder how much the failure of American Skiing Company is weighing on the recent events. Do you want to be the politician who signs off on millions of dollars in loan guarantees to Les Otten after he blew through a very large amount of investor money just a decade ago? ASC came public at $18 a share with a market cap of $245 mil. We all know how it wound up.


I cannot believe that would weigh on the decision.  The dynamics of the two ventures are quite different (yeah, they both involved ski resorts, but Balsams is 1).  The risks are different.  ASC risk was on multiple aquisitions with a high leveraged position, especially real estate.  Then being hit with a bad season in all regions except one (and the one had such a huge snow year, travel was nearly impossible on most weekends).
Balsams risk is trying to rekindle a shuttered resort and whether the business plan attracts enough $$ to become sustainable.  Many are boohooing the plan due to distance, but I feel the product they are trying to offer, distance and remoteness offers attraction.  Many on this board are not going to be attracted (let's face it, many of you don't care for the new Ikon pass as it doesn't have as many close by East resorts on it at as Max did and for more $) to this offering, but I assure you some will and will pony up $ for that.  Think of it as a fusion in a way of Hermitage (the plans have the luxury component in them and the remoteness gives the low skier density) but open to the public.

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## raisingarizona (Aug 28, 2018)

ss20 said:


> I can see a modest development with a small hotel, a few condo complexes, one lodge, 6-10 lifts...but anything beyond that I fail to see the demand.
> 
> As a Killington skier I see this a lot...lots and lots of terrain, lifts, lodges, and infrastructure...but how much of it is being used midweek?  Lifts are sitting idle, food courts in the lodges don't open, rental guys are on their phones with full racks of skis.  Most infrastructure is operating well-under capacity all but the busiest days of the year.  Balsams is further and even more grand in scope than Killington.



This is a good point. It's not very sustainable if you have x amount of infrastructure and only 35% of that is open or in use for 80% of the season. 

It's hard to keep good employees if you can only give them work for two days out of every non holiday week. 

Ski area business is hard and it's really hard out in the east. That's what gets me on these boards, I think it's super challenging and interesting.


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## ThinkSnow (Aug 29, 2018)

ss20 said:


> Balsams is further and even more grand in scope than Killington.


  More grand in scope than Kmart-- well, what isn't?  Its also a similar distance as say-- Jay Peak, and gets the same quality/quantity of snowfall.


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## x10003q (Aug 29, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Well Sugarloaf is also in the middle of nowhere...



Sugarloaf also has a history of not making money and a bankruptcy in the late 1980s. It is a good example of frequent, negative financial results despite the monster terrain. This is because Sugarloaf is in the middle of nowhere. Sugarloaf does have a long tradition of excellent skiing dating back to the 1950s which is why it continues to be a popular place to visit. The Balsams does not have a long tradition of big mountain skiing or excellent terrain.


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## ThinkSnow (Aug 29, 2018)

x10003q said:


> The Balsams does not have a long tradition of big mountain skiing or excellent terrain.


  This is true, however, the property is big enough to change that.


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## x10003q (Aug 29, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> More grand in scope than Kmart-- well, what isn't?  Its also a similar distance as say-- Jay Peak, and gets the same quality/quantity of snowfall.



It depends on where you are starting. Jay is about an hour closer to Montreal vs The Balsams and from here in north NJ, Jay is also about an hour closer. For about an extra half hour I could be at Sugarloaf  vs going to The Balsams. The real issue for The Balsams is that most major ski areas are hours closer from the US metro areas.



ThinkSnow said:


> This is true, however, the property is big enough to change that.


The property is big enough, but it is not compelling. I would certainly try it, but I doubt it will make me want to regularly drive by all of Vermont, Gore/WF, and some of the closer NH areas.


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## machski (Aug 29, 2018)

x10003q said:


> It depends on where you are starting. Jay is about an hour closer to Montreal vs The Balsams and from here in north NJ, Jay is also about an hour closer. For about an extra half hour I could be at Sugarloaf  vs going to The Balsams. The real issue for The Balsams is that most major ski areas are hours closer from the US metro areas.
> 
> 
> The property is big enough, but it is not compelling. I would certainly try it, but I doubt it will make me want to regularly drive by all of Vermont, Gore/WF, and some of the closer NH areas.



The problem many on this board are having is that yes, the Balsams plan is for a large ski area.  But that is not the only selling point to perspective owners here.  They are selling a 4 season uplevel resort experience that is tucked up in the Northern Wilderness.  Our friends who have a deposit down are case in point.  They went in given all the other focuses around the resort that add to the skiing.  If you are just looking for a ski area, you are right, many other areas are closer and probably just as good skiing.  That is not the demo they are targeting at Balsams.

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## ThinkSnow (Aug 29, 2018)

x10003q said:


> It depends on where you are starting. Jay is about an hour closer to Montreal vs The Balsams and from here in north NJ, Jay is also about an hour closer. For about an extra half hour I could be at Sugarloaf  vs going to The Balsams. The real issue for The Balsams is that most major ski areas are hours closer from the US metro areas.


  I guess is also depends on perspective-- not everyone is concerned with extra drive time if the skiing is worth it.


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## x10003q (Aug 29, 2018)

machski said:


> The problem many on this board are having is that yes, the Balsams plan is for a large ski area.  But that is not the only selling point to perspective owners here.  They are selling a 4 season uplevel resort experience that is tucked up in the Northern Wilderness.  Our friends who have a deposit down are case in point.  They went in given all the other focuses around the resort that add to the skiing.  If you are just looking for a ski area, you are right, many other areas are closer and probably just as good skiing.  That is not the demo they are targeting at Balsams.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



If they are not targeting skiers I am missing the point of The Balsams. If they are only focused on the upscale market, Otten's vision of what The Balsams can be will never happen. They are advertising a full build out of a 2200 acre ski resort with 22 lifts. The skiing is the main reason to go up there and buy property. Everything else at the Balsams besides skiing is easily found at many other resorts.


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## ThinkSnow (Aug 29, 2018)

Here is the list of proposed amenities from the website-- seems they've missed the culinary school mention.

 Largest and most advanced ski resort on the East Coast
• Legendary Donald Ross 18-hole Golf Course
• Mountain lakes for boating, swimming, fishing
• Endless miles of maintained trails for biking, running, hiking and designated recreational vehicles
• Fitness Center with Yoga and Pilates
• Aerial Adventure Park
• Performing Arts Center and festivals
• Unique lakeside “Resort Campus” layout
• Adjacency to the US/Canadian 1,000 mile snowmobile “Superhighway”
•* All activities are conveniently located on property*


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## eatskisleep (Aug 30, 2018)

x10003q said:


> Being in the middle of nowhere wasn't an issue when train travel was king and only the rich had air conditioners. People would escape the summer heat in the cities for vacations at The Balsams. Check out Saddleback if you want to see what happens to a ski resort in the middle of nowhere.




Jay Peak also in the middle of nowhere.


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## sull1102 (Aug 30, 2018)

eatskisleep said:


> Jay Peak also in the middle of nowhere.


And yet close enough to Montreal and hell even Burlington Vermont isn't that far away and loaded with college kids that praise Jay.

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## x10003q (Aug 30, 2018)

eatskisleep said:


> Jay Peak also in the middle of nowhere.



Jay is about 2 hours from Montreal - Montreal metro population is 4 million
Jay is about 4 hour from Ottawa (1.3 million /metro), 4 hours from Albany, NY, (1.2 million/metro) 3.5 hours from Quebec City (800,000/metro).


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## AdironRider (Aug 30, 2018)

x10003q said:


> Jay is about 2 hours from Montreal - Montreal metro population is 4 million
> Jay is about 4 hour from Ottawa (1.3 million /metro), 4 hours from Albany, NY, (1.2 million/metro) 3.5 hours from Quebec City (800,000/metro).



Dude, that is still the middle of nowhere. 

The point is people still need to drive past many other ski resorts that are CLOSER to get to Jay, or in reference to this thread, the Balsams. 

However, The Balsams was being redesigned and marketed as a 4 season destination experience. Jay is more of hey come play in the water park in winter day/weekend trip experience. Different business models ultimately.


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## Cat in January (Aug 31, 2018)

Snow is great, terrain is meh

Very much a plan for an all inclusive resort.  There is nothing, absolutely nothing around so in that sense the most middle of nowhere resort in the NE


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## ThinkSnow (Aug 31, 2018)

Sugarloaf, ME is almost a 5 hour drive from the metro Boston area, and 3:45 from Montreal.   

Dixville Notch is just over 4 hours from metro Boston, and just under 3 hours from Montreal.

Not sure how one can make a call on the terrain when trails haven't even been cut yet.


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## Cat in January (Aug 31, 2018)

real easy  topo maps

Don't know about the Montreal direction, but I bet real driving time is closer between the two you listed


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## deadheadskier (Aug 31, 2018)

I'm in Longwood right now.  Google estimate for me to get to Dixville is 3:58. Sugarloaf is 4:14.  



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## GregoryIsaacs (Aug 31, 2018)

Has anyone on AZ actually skied the Balsams? Any photos/trip reports?


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## Jully (Aug 31, 2018)

GregoryIsaacs said:


> Has anyone on AZ actually skied the Balsams? Any photos/trip reports?



Someone has, I remember reading a trip report years ago (Dlague or DHS maybe?).


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## machski (Aug 31, 2018)

GregoryIsaacs said:


> Has anyone on AZ actually skied the Balsams? Any photos/trip reports?


Honestly, that will not do what they have planned justice.  Thanks have been up but never skied.  The current area is just 1000 feet of Vert and very small.  I believe it was just an also thought to the entire Balsams resort which existed before they added the alpine skiing.  The new terrain they plan to the South West of current area plus from the true Summit zone will ski quite differently.

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## Cat in January (Aug 31, 2018)

Plan was for a very spread out network of lifts.  Imagine it would have provided a nice intermediate ski area with quiet trails.  Have not skied there.  Know friends who did way back in the day. I have toured nearby and spent time up in the area.  Folks were really hoping for it to happen as no jobs and young people have all moved away.  Hardly any kids in the Errol schools.  

I have a hard time seeing it open.  2 good size ski areas on either side shuttered now.  I would be looking at the owners of real estate at both these and run far away from putting any real money at the Balsams.


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## Smellytele (Aug 31, 2018)

Cat in January said:


> I have a hard time seeing it open.  2 good size ski areas on either side shuttered now.  I would be looking at the owners of real estate at both these and run far away from putting any real money at the Balsams.



Saddleback and?


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## ThinkSnow (Aug 31, 2018)

uphillklimber said:


> The best thing the Balsams has going for it is the snow. Hopefully, someone can capitalize on that!


I agree.  Was up last season snowshoeing around the property-- snow was like 5 feet deep in spots.  Just snowshoeing and XC skiing alone would be worth it.


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## x10003q (Aug 31, 2018)

AdironRider said:


> However, The Balsams was being redesigned and marketed as a 4 season destination experience. Jay is more of hey come play in the water park in winter day/weekend trip experience. Different business models ultimately.



But what is the special spring/summer/fall draw? A cooking class? 
You can find golf, spas, excellent hiking, lake/water sports at many other resorts. There are also a lot of existing luxury (mountain/beach) resorts that The Balsams will have for competition. 

The only realistic shot The Balsams has to gain some momentum is if they can make the skiing work. The Balsams' location will make that a difficult task.


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## deadheadskier (Aug 31, 2018)

I'm just trying to figure out what reason would a large amount of people decide it's worth the extra 90 minutes to get to the Balsams over Bretton Woods.  BW has basically everything the Balsams is stating they will offer.  Is 50" more snow and slightly steeper terrain going to draw the 4-500k skier visits an operation that large will likely need to be sustainable?

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## Cat in January (Aug 31, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> Saddleback and?



Haystack/Hermitage


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## machski (Aug 31, 2018)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm just trying to figure out what reason would a large amount of people decide it's worth the extra 90 minutes to get to the Balsams over Bretton Woods.  BW has basically everything the Balsams is stating they will offer.  Is 50" more snow and slightly steeper terrain going to draw the 4-500k skier visits an operation that large will likely need to be sustainable?
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


Last I checked, BW does not have a lake at the foot of the resort.  Balsams does (granted, not huge).  The scenery is hard to beat at the resort up there.  The fact it is a secluded, self contained spa/resort is very attractive to a certain cachet.  It thrived when the Mount Washington hotel and other grands were as well and closer.  Before it closed in the 2000's, I actually flew into Berlin with a Gulfstream V with a family headed to the Balsams.  It was fall, but they were headed there for tennis, foliage and the secludedness.  If done right, I think there is a market.  I'll say it again, their core market is not really those of us on this board.  

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## deadheadskier (Aug 31, 2018)

You may have missed my comment earlier, but it didn't thrive in modern times.  It was basically a hobby for Neil Tilliotson. Lost money almost every year. He made his money in the rubber industry (invented the latex balloon) and self financed the operation.

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## benski (Aug 31, 2018)

I think they have a shot.  I think they succeed they will provide high end facilities, all within walking distance of each other and the lifts. It sounds like it will try to draw, people mostly from Stratton, Okemo, and Mont Tremblant. I here all 3 are packed, so there could be a lot of demand from those crowds for a less crowded mountain with similar base facilities. I think you are foolish to compare it to Burke, SugarLoaf, or Saddleback. I think the experience of the Balsams will vary too much for many people to switch from one of those mountains to the other.


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## x10003q (Aug 31, 2018)

machski said:


> Last I checked, BW does not have a lake at the foot of the resort.  Balsams does (granted, not huge).  The scenery is hard to beat at the resort up there.  The fact it is a secluded, self contained spa/resort is very attractive to a certain cachet.  It thrived when the Mount Washington hotel and other grands were as well and closer.  Before it closed in the 2000's, I actually flew into Berlin with a Gulfstream V with a family headed to the Balsams.  It was fall, but they were headed there for tennis, foliage and the secludedness.  If done right, I think there is a market.  I'll say it again, their core market is not really those of us on this board.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



You are not going to financially support a 500 acre East Coast ski area (much less a 2200 acre/full  Balsams build out) with the people who have access to private jets. You need the people who drive up on a Friday and go home on Sunday for work and school.
The nostalgic history no longer matters. The car and the interstates have given everybody the freedom to go where they want, not where the railroad tracks went.


----------



## Smellytele (Aug 31, 2018)

Cat in January said:


> Haystack/Hermitage



That is a different animal all together. Also not really very close.


----------



## machski (Aug 31, 2018)

x10003q said:


> You are not going to financially support a 500 acre East Coast ski area (much less a 2200 acre/full  Balsams build out) with the people who have access to private jets. You need the people who drive up on a Friday and go home on Sunday for work and school.
> The nostalgic history no longer matters. The car and the interstates have given everybody the freedom to go where they want, not where the railroad tracks went.


Probably not, but I used it as an example to show there was draw far greater than you have painted to it in the past.  As for DHS's comments to it's recent past, I was more referring to Balsams heyday which was probably from around when I was born (1970's and earlier).  There is no doubt the model carries risk, but if something like this was going to be built, the seclusion to me is the one of the key draws.  You could build up Killington with a posh base village, high end spas sculpted in to the village landscape and have something similar (all be without the lake) but it wouldn't carry that uniqueness due to everyone able and willing to (mostly) get there easily.  

All this debate is likely academic anyway now.  The monetary lending markets have pretty much spoken.

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## Cat in January (Aug 31, 2018)

Smellytele said:


> That is a different animal all together. Also not really very close.



you are right not that close, but I thought the model might have been somewhat similar.  My knowledge of the Hermitage would not fill a teacup so defer to you.

As machski says academic at this point.


----------



## ThinkSnow (Sep 4, 2018)

x10003q said:


> You need the people who drive up on a Friday and go home on Sunday for work and school.
> The nostalgic history no longer matters.


  The Balsams never relied on weekend skiers.  It was always a destination resort for families that would come up for a week or weeks at a time.  Those people that used to go there still have a great admiration for the nostalgia and history, since they came up as children, when their grandparents would accompany the family, and now want to do the same thing with their families.


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## skiur (Sep 4, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> The Balsams never relied on weekend skiers.  It was always a destination resort for families that would come up for a week or weeks at a time.  Those people that used to go there still have a great admiration for the nostalgia and history, since they came up as children, when their grandparents would accompany the family, and now want to do the same thing with their families.



Problem is that there is not enough of those people to pay the bills!


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## x10003q (Sep 4, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> The Balsams never relied on weekend skiers.  It was always a destination resort for families that would come up for a week or weeks at a time.  Those people that used to go there still have a great admiration for the nostalgia and history, since they came up as children, when their grandparents would accompany the family, and now want to do the same thing with their families.



The Balsams' potential advantage is that it might be less crowded on weekends because there are many other choices that are closer to metro areas. The dilemma is that all Eastern resorts and ski areas are empty midweek - so why go to The Balsams if you choose an Eastern midweek vacation? The idea that some nostalgic history that most skiers might not even  know about is going to draw midweek skiers is really a reach by Otten.

The Balsams needs decent weekend skier traffic to support the first part - the 500 acre expansion and basically needs Elon Musk to build a hyperloop rail connection from Wash Metro,  Philly Metro, NY Metro, and Boston Metro to The Balsams to support a full build out of 22 lifts and 2200 acres.


----------



## bdfreetuna (Sep 4, 2018)

My main concern besides if they actually ever open is how interesting the terrain will be. From what I've seen of the proposed trail overlays, it looks like a lot of wide slopes and they aren't fitting many trails on each peak for this reason.

If this resort is going to be mega-huge I'd like to see variety and challenge rivaling Killington but with a more coherent trail layout and even more trees (done right the first time)... from what I've seen it's going to be Sunday River 2.0 with even wider slopes.


----------



## Hawk (Sep 5, 2018)

The other way to look at it is if there are less trails in each pod then there may be more woods to ski.  I have a friend that skins somewhere around there and he thinks the woods may be good in places.  I like to see them open just for another option.


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## bdfreetuna (Sep 5, 2018)

Goes almost without saying any new resort in a place with decent snowfall ought to go *heavy* on the tree skiing aspect.

Still would like to see some narrow, windy, interesting trails but we'll see... hopefully!


----------



## ThinkSnow (Sep 5, 2018)

x10003q said:


> The Balsams' potential advantage is that it might be less crowded on weekends because there are many other choices that are closer to metro areas. The dilemma is that all Eastern resorts and ski areas are empty midweek - so why go to The Balsams if you choose an Eastern midweek vacation? The idea that some nostalgic history that most skiers might not even  know about is going to draw midweek skiers is really a reach by Otten.
> 
> The Balsams needs decent weekend skier traffic to support the first part - the 500 acre expansion and basically needs Elon Musk to build a hyperloop rail connection from Wash Metro,  Philly Metro, NY Metro, and Boston Metro to The Balsams to support a full build out of 22 lifts and 2200 acres.



Its interesting just how focused many on this site seem to be that few from a metropolitan area will want to drive the extra time to get to NNH.  Working for a ski/snowboard group tours travel agency, Tremblant is without a doubt our most popular destination, bringing people from VA, PA, NY, NJ, CT, MA both in the forms of you-drives and bus groups.  If you've skied Tremblant, you know the terrain is far from the biggest or the best, but it does have other amenities to attract skiers and non-skiers alike.....and it's also quite a long drive.


----------



## machski (Sep 5, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> Goes almost without saying any new resort in a place with decent snowfall ought to go *heavy* on the tree skiing aspect.
> 
> Still would like to see some narrow, windy, interesting trails but we'll see... hopefully!


Perhaps you have missed the one entire pod that other than the liftline will be 100% woods?  I think they were saying like 800 or 900 acres of trees in that pod zone alone.

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## AdironRider (Sep 5, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> Its interesting just how focused many on this site seem to be that few from a metropolitan area will want to drive the extra time to get to NNH.  Working for a ski/snowboard group tours travel agency, Tremblant is without a doubt our most popular destination, bringing people from VA, PA, NY, NJ, CT, MA both in the forms of you-drives and bus groups.  If you've skied Tremblant, you know the terrain is far from the biggest or the best, but it does have other amenities to attract skiers and non-skiers alike.....and it's also quite a long drive.



Yeah, based on their reasoning, it is purely distance alone that determines whether a ski area will be successful. If that were the case, everyone would be skiing at WAWA, and my home hill of Jackson should never have been built in the first place.


----------



## Cat in January (Sep 6, 2018)

If you drive a long way and all you have is 1 restaurant in a quaint old hotel, that is a major difference than what is at Jackson or Tremblant.

There may be some all inclusive resorts in the West, but I can not think of one.  Hard for me to see the model working beyond the property sell out here in the NE.


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## AdironRider (Sep 6, 2018)

Cat in January said:


> If you drive a long way and all you have is 1 restaurant in a quaint old hotel, that is a major difference than what is at Jackson or Tremblant.
> 
> There may be some all inclusive resorts in the West, but I can not think of one.  Hard for me to see the model working beyond the property sell out here in the NE.




How do you think Jackson started? 

We had a grand total of 900 residents and one quaint hotel (The Wort) when Jackson Hole was built. 

Lets just move the goalposts, first it's the distance, now it is the distance, plus there aren't 20 other places to stay? 

I don't really care one way or another if this gets built, but you guys seem to be actively promoting that this place should fail.


----------



## x10003q (Sep 6, 2018)

ThinkSnow said:


> Its interesting just how focused many on this site seem to be that few from a metropolitan area will want to drive the extra time to get to NNH.  Working for a ski/snowboard group tours travel agency, Tremblant is without a doubt our most popular destination, bringing people from VA, PA, NY, NJ, CT, MA both in the forms of you-drives and bus groups.  If you've skied Tremblant, you know the terrain is far from the biggest or the best, but it does have other amenities to attract skiers and non-skiers alike.....and it's also quite a long drive.



You know it is not just the distance. Visiting Quebec is more than just skiing. The culture is a very different than New England. We have visited Mt Tremblant a few times in the last 10 years, most recently spring break 2017. We always stop in Montreal for a few days, usually on the way up. It is easy to do and right on the way. One more important part for USA skiers is the money conversion rate. Today $1US gets you $1.32CAN, that is a huge discount. 

The other important part of Mt Tremblant is that Montreal is about 80 miles from Mt Tremblant and Ottawa is about 95 miles from Mt Tremblant. They have the built in population to support the infrastructure of Mt Tremblant no matter who shows up from 7 hours away.


----------



## tumbler (Sep 6, 2018)

I'd say the culture of Northern NH is very interesting...


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## bdfreetuna (Sep 6, 2018)

tumbler said:


> I'd say the culture of Northern NH is very interesting...



Perhaps slightly more difficult to market as a draw for tourism, but certainly interesting lol


----------



## bdfreetuna (Sep 6, 2018)

machski said:


> Perhaps you have missed the one entire pod that other than the liftline will be 100% woods?  I think they were saying like 800 or 900 acres of trees in that pod zone alone.
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using AlpineZone mobile app



Map link? I'm not sure if what I've seen was the most recent version.


----------



## machski (Sep 6, 2018)

Here you go.  https://thebalsamsresort.com/balsams-ski-area-expansion-fly-over/view-1_phase-1/
I guess I was a bit optimistic, it's 500 acres of glades and looks like they added a few actual runs in the pod.

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## Cat in January (Sep 6, 2018)

AdironRider said:


> How do you think Jackson started?
> 
> We had a grand total of 900 residents and one quaint hotel (The Wort) when Jackson Hole was built.
> 
> ...



Not moving any goal posts, been pretty consistent in what I am saying.  Not a place I would like to see public money spent so investors can make money because its long term economic future doesn't make sense.  Just an opinion.

You can not really compare to the time when Jackson was built.  Skiing was growing and that is one of the most beautiful places on Earth.  The Balsams are in a pretty area and skiing is stagnant in growth and established ski hills are going down the drain.


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## bdfreetuna (Sep 6, 2018)

machski said:


> Here you go.  https://thebalsamsresort.com/balsams-ski-area-expansion-fly-over/view-1_phase-1/
> I guess I was a bit optimistic, it's 500 acres of glades and looks like they added a few actual runs in the pod.



Thanks! Yeah Lift 4 does look promising. However you can click around the 360 view and that's the only pod which appears to have unconventional terrain of any kind. Hard to tell admittedly but most of the other mountain faces seem to follow a familiar "modern" trail layout that reminds of of Okemo and Attitash expansions.


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## machski (Sep 6, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> Thanks! Yeah Lift 4 does look promising. However you can click around the 360 view and that's the only pod which appears to have unconventional terrain of any kind. Hard to tell admittedly but most of the other mountain faces seem to follow a familiar "modern" trail layout that reminds of of Okemo and Attitash expansions.


It's all academic at this point.  This delay will cause many early depositors to pull out not knowing when it will be done.  The few we know were already growing tired of the false starts and postponements.

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## ThinkSnow (Sep 7, 2018)

x10003q said:


> You know it is not just the distance. Visiting Quebec is more than just skiing. The culture is a very different than New England. We have visited Mt Tremblant a few times in the last 10 years, most recently spring break 2017. We always stop in Montreal for a few days, usually on the way up. It is easy to do and right on the way. One more important part for USA skiers is the money conversion rate. Today $1US gets you $1.32CAN, that is a huge discount.
> 
> The other important part of Mt Tremblant is that Montreal is about 80 miles from Mt Tremblant and Ottawa is about 95 miles from Mt Tremblant. They have the built in population to support the infrastructure of Mt Tremblant no matter who shows up from 7 hours away.



Very true, visiting Quebec there is a lot more than just skiing.  Thinking specifically of Quebec, it reminds me of Mont Saint Anne and Le Massif, a few more very nice, but rather smallish ski areas where having the city nearby makes visiting worthwhile.  Current conversion rate is quite the bonus, but that changes all the time, and is not a guarantee.  I also agree that Tremblant benefits from proximity to a few large cities, however I can totally see Quebecois traveling further for what the Balsams is proposing-- the largest ski area in the east in an area of NH that gets great snow (and really needs a large employer).  As it is now I always hear a lot of French Canadians on the slopes in NNH & NVT.  But if NNH, or the awfully long drive to get there isn't your thing, that's just fine-- more for the rest of us.


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## WWF-VT (Sep 7, 2018)

uphillklimber said:


> Just an observation, but the current president has some 500 current businesses going, not to mention any he may have shut down in the past. He's had what, 4 or 6 bankruptcies, depending on how you count them? That is a failure rate of about 1%. This is easily confirmed on any google search.
> 
> As far as how Les has done in business, we are all well aware of his one huge failure (despite being forever grateful for expanding ski areas for all of us to enjoy). Factor that in with his total business ventures, and unless he has 100 other business ventures, his failure rate will be much higher than the current president.
> 
> Numbers...



Don't confuse Trump's 500 or so limited liability companies (LLCs) with actual operating companies .  Most are just on paper as a way to shuffle income and avoid paying taxes.  Trump's multiple corporate bankruptcy filings and business failures likely dwarf the financial cost of the wind down of American Skiing Company


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## DoublePlanker (Sep 27, 2018)

Hail Mary attempt?

https://www.conwaydailysun.com/busi...cle_f2bfcd3a-bb68-11e8-bf50-033081898a1e.html

https://unofficialnetworks.com/2018...lans-to-reopen-new-hampshires-balsams-resort/


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## bdfreetuna (Sep 27, 2018)

WWF-VT said:


> Don't confuse Trump's 500 or so limited liability companies (LLCs) with actual operating companies .  Most are just on paper as a way to shuffle income and avoid paying taxes.  Trump's multiple corporate bankruptcy filings and business failures likely dwarf the financial cost of the wind down of American Skiing Company



Let's do it... under budget and ahead of schedule!


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## machski (Sep 27, 2018)

DoublePlanker said:


> Hail Mary attempt?
> 
> https://www.conwaydailysun.com/busi...cle_f2bfcd3a-bb68-11e8-bf50-033081898a1e.html
> 
> https://unofficialnetworks.com/2018...lans-to-reopen-new-hampshires-balsams-resort/


No, but you can see the difficulty trying to do business in the unincorporated far North NH.

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## DoublePlanker (Oct 1, 2018)

Article in the onion ...
http://www.unionleader.com/article/20181001/NEWS02/181009986


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## Cat in January (Oct 1, 2018)

If I am reading it correctly it seems the problem is they want to sell tax free property to the upper 1% for the resort while creating low paying service jobs.


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## machski (Oct 2, 2018)

Cat in January said:


> If I am reading it correctly it seems the problem is they want to sell tax free property to the upper 1% for the resort while creating low paying service jobs.


Not to worry, you are not reading it correctly.  What they want is the development bond floated but because Dixville is Unincorporated, the waters are muddy on this.  In addition, the law currently ties the BFA into it.  The tax question was on business tax relief.  Business taxes in NH are quite onerous, and as Otten pointed out, relief is given to get business in state.  If a biotech can get it in Manchester, one would think a business in the great North could get the same (considering the lack of jobs up there.  Southern NH really is not at a loss for jobs).

Not really sure how you read tax free property for the wealthy.  A no property tax for buyers was not even alluded to in that article. 

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## thetrailboss (Oct 2, 2018)

uphillklimber said:


> Tax free property? In New Hampshire? Don't they brag about not having a property tax? Am I missing something here?



The property tax is the only significant tax NH has.  At last check at least.


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## AdironRider (Oct 2, 2018)

thetrailboss said:


> The property tax is the only tax NH has.  At last check at least.




They tax prepared foods, hotel stays, and I think car rentals also, but those aren't breaking anyone's bank.


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## 2Planker (Oct 2, 2018)

uphillklimber said:


> Tax free property? In New Hampshire? Don't they brag about not having a property tax? Am I missing something here?



NH has NO sales tax and NO State Income Tax
BUT there Property Taxes are higher than every other state in NE


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## machski (Oct 2, 2018)

2Planker said:


> NH has NO sales tax and NO State Income Tax
> BUT there Property Taxes are higher than every other state in NE


You have to pay some way.  We actually also have an interest and dividend tax for individuals as well.  But the personal exemption is $2400.00 so most don't even need to file.  But when you renew or get a DL in NH, you have to attest on the app you have met your obligation on the Dividend and Interest taxes.

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## Jully (Oct 2, 2018)

machski said:


> Not to worry, you are not reading it correctly.  What they want is the development bond floated but because Dixville is Unincorporated, the waters are muddy on this.  In addition, the law currently ties the BFA into it.  The tax question was on business tax relief.  Business taxes in NH are quite onerous, and as Otten pointed out, relief is given to get business in state.  If a biotech can get it in Manchester, one would think a business in the great North could get the same (considering the lack of jobs up there.  Southern NH really is not at a loss for jobs).
> 
> Not really sure how you read tax free property for the wealthy.  A no property tax for buyers was not even alluded to in that article.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app



I was reading it the same way. It appears that the entire business was looking for tax exemption. Yes that would therefore kind of apply to 1%ers, but its saving the ski resort money and helping them get in the door.


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## MG Skier (Oct 2, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> Let's do it... under budget and ahead of schedule!
> 
> View attachment 24037



Nice One!


----------



## tnt1234 (Oct 3, 2018)

bdfreetuna said:


> Let's do it... under budget and ahead of schedule!
> 
> View attachment 24037



That's hilarious!


----------



## thetrailboss (Feb 10, 2019)

Bump.  Now LBO wants public money again.  

https://www.conwaydailysun.com/news...cle_6c25214a-24a8-11e9-a678-5b4e6632655c.html


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## machski (Feb 10, 2019)

thetrailboss said:


> Bump.  Now LBO wants public money again.
> 
> https://www.conwaydailysun.com/news...cle_6c25214a-24a8-11e9-a678-5b4e6632655c.html


He always has maintained that would be a needed component.

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## ThinkSnow (Apr 19, 2019)

https://thebalsamsresort.com/senate-passes-balsams-bill/


Update


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## MG Skier (Apr 19, 2019)

I was just saying to myself the other day....what is going on with the Balsams project......


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## GregoryIsaacs (Apr 19, 2019)

Lets just hope the economy can keep pace because this is unbelievable. Also makes me concerned that a successful Balsams means the end of Saddleback for good.  

Makes me think....what is considered the newest "big" mountain? Sunday River? Looks like that one turned out OK


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## deadheadskier (Apr 19, 2019)

If you qualify it as big, Bretton Woods in 1973

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## EPB (Apr 19, 2019)

GregoryIsaacs said:


> Lets just hope the economy can keep pace because this is unbelievable. Also makes me concerned that a successful Balsams means the end of Saddleback for good.
> 
> Makes me think....what is considered the newest "big" mountain? Sunday River? Looks like that one turned out OK


A massive Balsams buildout would definitely make Saddleback less viable.

To me, the issue with Saddleback is that the Berry guy who owns the place is completely delusional. He seems too proud proud to realize that he failed, and that his dreams of restraining land around the boundary for real estate development will 100% prohibit him from ever selling the resort. 

How stupid would someone have to be to pay him to just own/operate the ski area with no potential real estate upside? The guy can't even keep the place operational is it is.

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## deadheadskier (Apr 19, 2019)

Agreed.  I can understand not wanting to turn the place into Sunday River 2.0 with massive development and a desire to maintain the unique character of the place, but Saddleback needs a substantial increase in bed base to be viable.  You need a core group of a couple thousand vacation home owners that will show up every weekend to keep the lights on.  

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## granite (Apr 19, 2019)

The Balsams needs to re-open for historical reasons alone.  It has always been, and will always be, a destination resort.  It is a viable destination resort if properly managed.  Coos County is a year round happening place, gaining more and more visitors every year, except for mud season.  They need to make sure it's well connected to the snow mobile and ATV trails and welcome both.  I imagine skiing trackless powder every run there if they ever did develop all that they want to.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 19, 2019)

I disagree about the viability without major second home development.  The old hotel operation lost money almost every year for the last few decades it was open. A buddy of mine was friends with the Tillotsons. He made all his money in the rubber industry.  The Balsams was a hobby of Neil's and he was quite open about it's financial hardships.  Ocean Properties who own the Wentworth, Sagamore and about 100 other hotels around the country took a pass on it because they didn't see it as financially viable.  

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## ThinkSnow (Apr 19, 2019)

Perhaps Les Otten will tackle Saddleback after Balsams gets going?


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## x10003q (Apr 19, 2019)

So who is going to back the bond???


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## x10003q (Apr 19, 2019)

granite said:


> The Balsams needs to re-open for historical reasons alone.  It has always been, and will always be, a destination resort.  It is a viable destination resort if properly managed.  Coos County is a year round happening place, gaining more and more visitors every year, except for mud season.  They need to make sure it's well connected to the snow mobile and ATV trails and welcome both.  I imagine skiing trackless powder every run there if they ever did develop all that they want to.



It was a destination resort when people traveled by train and before air conditioning existed. Those days are long gone.


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## raisingarizona (Apr 19, 2019)

x10003q said:


> It was a destination resort when people traveled by train and before air conditioning existed. Those days are long gone.



Bigger than killington? 

If this is done right they could probably make it successful.

What other attractions could separate them from other eastern resorts?


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## snoseek (Apr 19, 2019)

raisingarizona said:


> Bigger than killington?
> 
> If this is done right they could probably make it successful.
> 
> What other attractions could separate them from other eastern resorts?



Much less rain.


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## machski (Apr 20, 2019)

raisingarizona said:


> Bigger than killington?
> 
> If this is done right they could probably make it successful.
> 
> What other attractions could separate them from other eastern resorts?


The outdoor thermo hot baths.  Obviously artificial as we do not have volcanic activity to support natural one's, but I know the baths are a key component to be completed before early buyers are triggered into actual payments on their unit shares.

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## raisingarizona (Apr 20, 2019)

snoseek said:


> Much less rain.




That’s a biggie


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## machski (Apr 20, 2019)

raisingarizona said:


> That’s a biggie


Well, basically on the same level as what Jay Peak sees Rainwise.  The difference between the two if the Balsams happens is the Balsams will have a snowmaking system that will allow for rapid recovery where as of now, Jay does not.

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## ThinkSnow (Apr 22, 2019)

In the summer, it has the Donald J Ross golf course.

https://rosssociety.org/resources/Documents/Ross_Course_List_Feb_2018_final_.pdf


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## Do Work (Apr 22, 2019)

Hilarious to me that this is still getting kicked around.  This albatross should be euthanized.


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## JoeB-Z (Apr 22, 2019)

machski said:


> Well, basically on the same level as what Jay Peak sees Rainwise.  The difference between the two if the Balsams happens is the Balsams will have a snowmaking system that will allow for rapid recovery where as of now, Jay does not.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app



It is likely the Balsams snowmaking system will mostly be provided by the investor's tears.


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## MG Skier (Apr 22, 2019)

Good Point on Jay Peaks recovery after rain.....I love it up there but I am cautious and constantly watching weather to make sure it is worth the ride up!


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## mister moose (Apr 22, 2019)

snoseek said:


> Much less rain.


Less doesn't mean none.  Many is the inside runner storm that produces rain well into Canada, frequently to Quebec.

They will be in a worse position to compete with a 4 hour flight to Denver for a week's skiing, not better given the further driving distance.

They won't attract the traffic if they are small, and they won't be able to cover the cost of a Killington size area either with the traffic willing to go there.  Jay is a good barometer of that market, and they will compete for it, not add significantly to it.




machski said:


> Well, basically on the same level as what Jay Peak sees Rainwise.  The difference between the two if the Balsams happens is the Balsams will have a snowmaking system that will allow for rapid recovery where as of now, Jay does not.



Jay doesn't make more snow because their balance sheet doesn't allow them too.  How is The Balsams going to draw significantly _more_ traffic than Jay does to pay for that?​
I wouldn't be a investor.


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## ThinkSnow (Apr 22, 2019)

mister moose said:


> They will be in a worse position to compete with a 4 hour flight to Denver for a week's skiing, not better given the further driving distance.



4 hour flight to Denver only if you're flying from Newark or Philly.  Even JFK & Boston flights are approximately 5 hours non-stop.  That doesn't include time to get too/from the airport, car rentals or transfers.

Driving to the Balsams from Boston is approximately 4 hours or under- depending on the route, door to door.  Well under 4 from Burlington VT.  For an area larger than Kmart with XC, snowshoeing and snowmobiling as well?  They'd get the MA, NH & even NVT traffic, and not only those people who grew up as kids going there on family destination vacations, now wanting their kids to have the same experience.


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## deadheadskier (Apr 22, 2019)

What traffic?  Loon is the busiest resort in NH and only does about 330k visits a season.   

To expand to the size they are talking about, the Balsams likely needs 500k skier visits a season to be viable.  There's not a resort north of Killington pulling that kind of traffic.  Stowe, Sugarbush, Smuggs, Sugarloaf, Jay; none of them do that kind of business despite having vastly superior terrain to what the Balsams will have. 


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## Edd (Apr 22, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> none of them do that kind of business despite having vastly superior terrain to what the Balsams will have.



They don’t need superior terrain. They need trails digestible to Joey and his family and a lot of it to support those high customer figures.


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## Newpylong (Apr 22, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> What traffic?  Loon is the busiest resort in NH and only does about 330k visits a season.
> 
> To expand to the size they are talking about, the Balsams likely needs 500k skier visits a season to be viable.  There's not a resort north of Killington pulling that kind of traffic.  Stowe, Sugarbush, Smuggs, Sugarloaf, Jay; none of them do that kind of business despite having vastly superior terrain to what the Balsams will have.
> 
> ...



Yet Sunday River was able to grow to 500,000+ visits 3.5 hrs from the closest large metro area. Colebrook is only 2.5 hrs from Montreal.

Hard to crystal ball what could happen, but history shows it is possible.


----------



## AdironRider (Apr 22, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> What traffic?  Loon is the busiest resort in NH and only does about 330k visits a season.
> 
> To expand to the size they are talking about, the Balsams likely needs 500k skier visits a season to be viable.  There's not a resort north of Killington pulling that kind of traffic.  Stowe, Sugarbush, Smuggs, Sugarloaf, Jay; none of them do that kind of business despite having vastly superior terrain to what the Balsams will have.
> 
> ...



Damn NH's busiest resort only does 330k visits a year? I would have guessed 500k+ no problem. 

Makes me feel worse and worse about the 700k+ Jackson now gets.


----------



## deadheadskier (Apr 22, 2019)

Newpylong said:


> Yet Sunday River was able to grow to 500,000+ visits 3.5 hrs from the closest large metro area. Colebrook is only 2.5 hrs from Montreal.
> 
> Hard to crystal ball what could happen, but history shows it is possible.


It's possible sure, but all those resorts I listed save for Sugarloaf are even closer to Montreal than the Balsams and they aren't doing 500k visits despite that plus an easier commute from Boston. 

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## x10003q (Apr 22, 2019)

Newpylong said:


> Yet Sunday River was able to grow to 500,000+ visits 3.5 hrs from the closest large metro area. Colebrook is only 2.5 hrs from Montreal.
> 
> Hard to crystal ball what could happen, but history shows it is possible.



The only way The Balsams works and gets to full buildout is though real estate sales. The closest metro area is Montreal, but Montreal already has a huge choice of US and Canadian ski areas to choose from that are closer or the same distance as the Balsams. Certainly, there would be the curiosity factor, but I doubt it would be a big draw. You also have to consider the Canadian $ is worth .75USD. That is not helpful for Canadian real estate sales. 

Golf is not driving visits, either. This place has money loser written all over it.


----------



## machski (Apr 22, 2019)

AdironRider said:


> Damn NH's busiest resort only does 330k visits a year? I would have guessed 500k+ no problem.
> 
> Makes me feel worse and worse about the 700k+ Jackson now gets.


Oh yeah, and Loon is even close to the amount of terrain at JHMR.  Also, the majority of that 330K hits on the weekends and holidays only, it's not as spread out through the season as what you have seen.

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## Newpylong (Apr 22, 2019)

I am skeptical as well - my point was simply that the "if you build it they will come" idea has worked in the past, albeit no circumstances are the same.


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## machski (Jun 26, 2019)

It's all over now.  Not much of a surprise I guess with all the postponements to beginning the rebirth. 

https://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=774

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## Killingtime (Jun 26, 2019)

Can't say I'm surprised either although I was hoping beyond hope that this could be built. It would've been cool.


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## deadheadskier (Jun 26, 2019)

Maybe Otten will take one last shot over at Saddleback. I'd much rather see SB come back to life than what was planned at the Balsams

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## thetrailboss (Jun 26, 2019)

machski said:


> It's all over now.  Not much of a surprise I guess with all the postponements to beginning the rebirth.
> 
> https://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=774
> 
> Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app



I saw reference to the sale in a local newspaper article last week, but it was behind a paywall.  Suprisingly I did not find mention of it until now.  Guess it is over.


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## thetrailboss (Jun 26, 2019)

deadheadskier said:


> Maybe Otten will take one last shot over at Saddleback. I'd much rather see SB come back to life than what was planned at the Balsams
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



I think we will probably never see LBO re-emerge as a player in the ski scene given what happened with ASC.  Lots of good ideas but no money and nobody willing to bankroll him.


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## ThinkSnow (Jun 27, 2019)

Well that's just too bad.


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## Rogman (Jun 30, 2019)

It never made sense. If I recall it’s south of Sugarloaf, but like the ‘loaf, too far off the beaten track. I get that if you build a destination resort people will come. But there was never a viable plan for that: when it’s huge great... but how do grow from a few lifts to what was envisioned.


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## thetrailboss (Feb 12, 2020)

Bump.  

Footage from the Primaries show our friend Les Otten casting the first vote in the primary for Dixville Notch.  Must be he is living up there now.


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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 12, 2020)

Les should next invest $20 for the dude in the suit to get a new hair cut...


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## thetrailboss (Feb 12, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Les should next invest $20 for the dude in the suit to get a new hair cut...



Yikes.  

And Les was sporting a Balsam's Vest. I'm pretty sure that they do the event at the Balsam's.  Must be sad seeing it sit empty.


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## Smellytele (Feb 12, 2020)

Les "moved" to dixville notch just for the election. They only had 4 people that lived there so they needed to have a fifth in order to have a polling station. Then he wrote in Bloomberg on his Republican ballot. Bloomberg was not registered at all in NH for the election.


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## Zand (Feb 12, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Les should next invest $20 for the dude in the suit to get a new hair cut...



Is that Mark Davis? Raiders moving to NH confirmed.


----------



## raisingarizona (Feb 12, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Les should next invest $20 for the dude in the suit to get a new hair cut...



Oh dang. Cold af. 

Why you gotta be telling that John Denver to go fly a plane like that?


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Feb 12, 2020)

Zand said:


> Is that Mark Davis? Raiders moving to NH confirmed.



:lol:



raisingarizona said:


> Oh dang. Cold af.
> 
> Why you gotta be telling that John Denver to go fly a plane like that?



Hey I said nothing about flying a plane.  Just looking for a little trim around the ears, thats all!  :lol:


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## thetrailboss (Feb 12, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Les "moved" to dixville notch just for the election. They only had 4 people that lived there so they needed to have a fifth in order to have a polling station. Then he wrote in Bloomberg on his Republican ballot. Bloomberg was not registered at all in NH for the election.



I wondered if he voted for Bloomberg.

And moving to Dixville to be in the First in the Nation Primary and to get the publicity.  A very Les thing to do. 

In all seriousness it would be sad to see that Dixville tradition come to an end.


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## flakeydog (Feb 12, 2020)

Spent a couple of nights up there years ago.  I remember in the Inn, there was the voting room.  I think there was 10 or 12 residents at that time and they each had their own personal voting booth.  If they needed 5 people to vote, good for Les helping them make it happen.  I hope something happens to that place, really cool building in a spectacular setting.


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## jimmywilson69 (Feb 12, 2020)

that's a lot of cake for 5 people!  Definitely the LBO way Go Big or Go Home!


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## MEtoVTSkier (Feb 13, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> that's a lot of cake for 5 people!  Definitely the LBO way Go Big or Go Home!



Well originally it was supposed to be one cake, then Les came by and said "Well we could cut some more over here, and maybe another pod of cakes over there..."


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## deadheadskier (Feb 13, 2020)

lol

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## mbedle (Feb 14, 2020)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Well originally it was supposed to be one cake, then Les came by and said "Well we could cut some more over here, and maybe another pod of cakes over there..."



OMG - that was a good one. lol


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Feb 14, 2020)

:lol:


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## thetrailboss (Feb 14, 2020)

MEtoVTSkier said:


> Well originally it was supposed to be one cake, then Les came by and said "Well we could cut some more over here, and maybe another pod of cakes over there..."



Good one!  :lol:


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## thetrailboss (Feb 24, 2020)

A friend of mine was snowmobiling up north last weekend.  Here is the state of the Balsams:







Very sad.  Mr. Tillotson must be rolling in his grave.


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## 2Planker (Feb 24, 2020)

Lil known fact.  The Balsams was purchased w/ $$$ from the invention of........




... the latex condom - Yup !


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## deadheadskier (Feb 24, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> A friend of mine was snowmobiling up north last weekend.  Here is the state of the Balsams:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes and no.  Sad to see it vacant and falling apart for sure. Lots of history just rotting now.   Probably not sad that his kids / grandkids don't have the burden of managing a money losing venture.  

My one time employer and still good friend of mine is good friends with the Tillotsons.  My friend has told me flat out that since Neil bought it in the 50s, the Balsams operated at a loss basically 9 out of every 10 years.  The Balsams was literally a hobby for Neil funded by his latex profits.  The Balsams existed since the 50s because of his benevolence and nothing more.

His kids kept it operating at a loss for ten years after their dads death. By the time they gave it up it was already well worn and in need of serious maintenance.  The family latex fortune had to be split four ways after Neil's death.  That fortune likely not what it could have been because Neil operated the place at a loss and probably lost most of his the fortune he planned on gifting to his  kids.

Only option for the place in my mind is another Benevolent family stepping in. People who love the lifestyle and can self fund it.

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## AdironRider (Feb 25, 2020)

Didn't that building collapse like 5 years ago? 

Kinda surprising they didn't tear it down to make selling the vision easier, but even demo is expensive on a place that big.


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## ThinkSnow (Feb 25, 2020)

Yes, its been in the same collapsed stated for years now.  They did a controlled burn of a few buildings previously in 2013.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xB5LH7pHZBs


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## ThinkSnow (Apr 10, 2020)

10 APRIL 2020

Greetings,

 We hope that you are staying healthy and adjusting to our new norm of  social distancing. At The Balsams, our first priority has been to  ensure the safety of all our families, and we are grateful to those on  the front lines of the current response efforts.  At the same time, we have taken a new step in exploring how The Balsams  can positively and sustainably impact the overall health of our  environment.
 When we emerge from the COVID-19 battle, we will have an  unprecedented opportunity to create a truly sustainable resort  community. To that end, we have been working with environmental  community leaders to help us frame and focus our redevelopment plan by  implementing Environmental, Social, and Governance (ESG) policies.

 The goal is to create a wholly carbon-neutral resort destination that  (1) pays homage to the foresight of past Balsams owners and their use  of renewable resources; (2) is a business that benefits the social  wellbeing of Northern NH; and (3) employs progressive  and empowering corporate management practices.
 These ESG policies will enhance the extraordinary and diverse  amenities and activities at the Balsams. They will complement our vision  of The Balsams’ path ahead, increase economic stability in the  surrounding communities, and nod to the history of sustainability  that The Balsams pioneered. From Farm-to-Table to composting, wind and  solar energy to wood biomass heating – we will be leaders into the  future. If you are interested in how we have positioned The Balsams’  redevelopment as an ESG opportunity, inclusive of  our experience with implementing these concepts in prior Resort  properties, please *click  this link to view our executive summary.*

 As we press forward knowing that these times will pass, we wish good  health and prosperity for you and your family. Now is a time to be  forward-thinking, and we thank you for supporting us in our efforts to  lead the way.

 Sincerely,
The Balsams Team

http://thebalsamsresort.com/esg-pro...m_medium=Email&utm_campaign=ESGPolicyFounders


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## Smellytele (Apr 10, 2020)

Strange


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## Edd (Apr 10, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> Strange
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Yeah, what is that?


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## machski (Apr 10, 2020)

Apparently they are using the entire Virus/Pandemic/Economic shutdown to reframe their concept going forward into an environmentally and socially responsible development.  Can't totally blame them for trying to reimage themselves from this event.  They aren't the only closed resort trying to restart itself out of this time period (Saddleback and Timberline Mountain in W.VA come to mind).

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## thetrailboss (Apr 10, 2020)

So is Les still a part of this?


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## machski (Apr 10, 2020)

thetrailboss said:


> So is Les still a part of this?


Yes

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## x10003q (Apr 17, 2020)

While it is a admirable attempt to lower the environmental impact of the project, it is still the same story in the same place, only now the economy is a disaster. This was never going to happen before COVID-19. COVID-19 just eliminated that .0001% chance that LO was hanging onto.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 11, 2020)

Still going.....









						Balsams developers seek different type of investors
					

Coos planners vote to extend vesting period to 2025




					www.nhbr.com


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## machski (Dec 10, 2021)

Les still at it, has a new angle and deal to get things rolling.








						Otten outlines plan to proceed with redevelopment of Balsams
					

December 9th, 2021 “WEST STEWARTSTOWN – Balsams developer Les Otten on Wednesday unveiled plans to have a national non-profit organization build the planned new hotel and conference cen…




					thebalsamsresort.com
				




You can say 1 thing for sure, he is determined to drive this project.  That part of NH desperately could use the resort back in operation.


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## eatskisleep (Dec 10, 2021)

machski said:


> Les still at it, has a new angle and deal to get things rolling.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If anyone can do it, it’s him.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 10, 2021)

I regret not skiing there when it was open.  My Burke Pass got me access.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 20, 2022)

Bump.  









						Can the Balsams rise from the ashes? Inside Les Otten's risky venture - New England Ski Journal
					

There’s only one question regarding former American Skiing Company founder Les Otten's proposed development of the Balsams.




					www.skijournal.com


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## tumbler (Jan 20, 2022)

Always has been an ambitious plan but maybe it has a chance now with all the anti mega pass sentiments.


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## eatskisleep (Jan 20, 2022)

tumbler said:


> Always has been an ambitious plan but maybe it has a chance now with all the anti mega pass sentiments.


Would be a good spot for Indy


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## Los (Mar 19, 2022)

From NH Business Review: 
Update on the Balsams Project with Developer Les Otten​


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## 2Planker (Sep 29, 2022)

Spoke w/ Les the other day
 He says that w/ the Goldman Sachs backing they're now up to 500+ PreSale commitments of over $30M

Go Les !


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## Edd (Sep 29, 2022)

Don’t suppose he mentioned what season he’d hope the ski area would be operational?


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## x10003q (Sep 29, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Spoke w/ Les the other day
> He says that w/ the Goldman Sachs backing they're now up to 500+ PreSale commitments of over $30M
> 
> Go Les !


500+ commitments?  Maybe he means email addresses?
Interest rates are up around 8% for a 30yr fixed mortgage and the Canadian dollar has sunk to $.73US. 
A good salesman never lets reality confuse the mark.


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## Newpylong (Sep 29, 2022)

Do you think anyone who is interesting in buying would pay anything but cash? I sure don't.


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## Edd (Nov 7, 2022)

Instagram post today. Signs of possible life. Can’t believe this is still a thing. 









						THE BALSAMS STORY
					






					thebalsamsresort.com


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## tumbler (Nov 7, 2022)

Les has got a lot of the old ASC team back together.


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## x10003q (Nov 7, 2022)

The first post of this thread was Feb 11. 2014.


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## jimmywilson69 (Nov 7, 2022)

They aren't building shit up there in this economy...

I do wonder if Less Otter will cast the first vote tomorrow


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## doublediamond (Nov 7, 2022)

There’s nothing new in that posting. But sources tell me it’s basically a go for winter 24-25. Just dotting I’s and crossing T’s.


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## Former Sunday Rivah Rat (Nov 7, 2022)

Otten was saying on his site that he is looking to do the Bond offering in the Fall.  Did they have the Bond offering?  is it delayed with the  rate hikes?   If so they must be rooting for rates to come down quickly.


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## NYDB (Nov 7, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Spoke w/ Les the other day
> He says that w/ the Goldman Sachs backing they're now up to 500+ PreSale commitments of over $30M
> 
> Go Les !


That’s only 60k per commitment.   What are they committed to for 60k?


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## doublediamond (Nov 7, 2022)

There are 3x 100-day shares and a 65-day share per condo. From a standard hotel room, up to 3 bedroom suites sleeping 6.


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## x10003q (Nov 8, 2022)

From the front page Balsams internet site:

"The condominium has not yet been registered by the New Hampshire Consumer Protection and Antitrust Bureau of the Attorney General's Office, Department of Justice.        Until such time as registration has been issued, *only* *non-binding reservation agreements may be accepted.*" (my bolding)

So The Balsams has 500 non-binding reservations? What does that even mean? Why isn't the development registered with NH? What are they waiting for?









						Balsams Ski Area Expansion – view from the NW
					

Visit the post for more.




					thebalsamsresort.com


----------



## EPB (Nov 8, 2022)

x10003q said:


> From the front page Balsams internet site:
> 
> "The condominium has not yet been registered by the New Hampshire Consumer Protection and Antitrust Bureau of the Attorney General's Office, Department of Justice.        Until such time as registration has been issued, *only* *non-binding reservation agreements may be accepted.*" (my bolding)
> 
> ...


It means very little. Hopefully Arctaris makes a strong return on Saddleback and wants to do it over again in Dixville one day. It probably not likely but I just don't see Otten ever getting off the ground.


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## machski (Nov 8, 2022)

EPB said:


> It means very little. Hopefully Arctaris makes a strong return on Saddleback and wants to do it over again in Dixville one day. It probably not likely but I just don't see Otten ever getting off the ground.


Totally different areas and deals.  Saddleback outside of the Rangley chair was mostly intact with decent snowmaking system already in place.  Not to mention a great baselodge and while Rangley isn't a roaring mountain town, there are beds and restaurant options there.  None of that can be said of The Balsams.  It is out there all on its own mostly.  For someone to pull this off there, one has to be 110% in on every aspect from the skiing/ on hill amenities and the necessary base village/dining/lodging right from start.  Not easy at all.


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## 2Planker (Nov 8, 2022)

Got a private tour yesterday.  Will definitely be very nice, just in the middle of no where.

Les thinks it'll attract people from NYC and all of NE. I dunno about that.....


----------



## EPB (Nov 8, 2022)

machski said:


> Totally different areas and deals.  Saddleback outside of the Rangley chair was mostly intact with decent snowmaking system already in place.  Not to mention a great baselodge and while Rangley isn't a roaring mountain town, there are beds and restaurant options there.  None of that can be said of The Balsams.  It is out there all on its own mostly.  For someone to pull this off there, one has to be 110% in on every aspect from the skiing/ on hill amenities and the necessary base village/dining/lodging right from start.  Not easy at all.


You're missing the forest through the trees. I agree with all the differences you outlined, which is precisely why I said it's low probability. It's important to remember there aren't Rangeleys just lying around. Greenville, where I've never been, may be the closest comp in New England, but I've never been. Some other group is already in there. The next opportunity is unlikely to be as fertile as the lowest hanging fruit.

The key similarities are that Coos County is fertile ground for an impact type investor like Arctaris like Western Maine. Population has been declining there since the 1940s, employers have moved out/gone defunct, etc. If Arctaris ever has a successful exit, two things will hopefully (from their perspective) happen: 1) they'll have a larger fund out of which to invest, and 2) they'll have a playbook on how to do all the ancillary things that made the Saddleback project work (fostering public buy-in/funding, growing revenue, operating efficiently, managing a sale process of a ski-related asset, etc.). Given the lessons learned, they may feel that there are enough positives to make The Balsams work, probably not. That said, they're probably a more realistic option than Les.


----------



## deadheadskier (Nov 8, 2022)

machski said:


> Totally different areas and deals.  Saddleback outside of the Rangley chair was mostly intact with decent snowmaking system already in place.  Not to mention a great baselodge and while Rangley isn't a roaring mountain town, there are beds and restaurant options there.  None of that can be said of The Balsams.  It is out there all on its own mostly.  For someone to pull this off there, one has to be 110% in on every aspect from the skiing/ on hill amenities and the necessary base village/dining/lodging right from start.  Not easy at all.



Kinda.....at least in regards to geography.

Saddleback is not too much closer to Rangeley than Balsams is to Colebrook.  Both ski areas are a pretty good distance from towns.  Similar sized towns too.  Rangeley a bit more developed for tourism obviously due to the lakes.

Definitely agree the ski area at Saddleback is far more turnkey than Balsams.

Both are really difficult locations in general.


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## eatskisleep (Nov 8, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Got a private tour yesterday.  Will definitely be very nice, just in the middle of no where.
> 
> Les thinks it'll attract people from NYC and all of NE. I dunno about that.....


How does snowfall up there compare to the likes of Jay Peak?


----------



## machski (Nov 8, 2022)

EPB said:


> You're missing the forest through the trees. I agree with all the differences you outlined, which is precisely why I said it's low probability. It's important to remember there aren't Rangeleys just lying around. Greenville, where I've never been, may be the closest comp in New England, but I've never been. Some other group is already in there. The next opportunity is unlikely to be as fertile as the lowest hanging fruit.
> 
> The key similarities are that Coos County is fertile ground for an impact type investor like Arctaris like Western Maine. Population has been declining there since the 1940s, employers have moved out/gone defunct, etc. If Arctaris ever has a successful exit, two things will hopefully (from their perspective) happen: 1) they'll have a larger fund out of which to invest, and 2) they'll have a playbook on how to do all the ancillary things that made the Saddleback project work (fostering public buy-in/funding, growing revenue, operating efficiently, managing a sale process of a ski-related asset, etc.). Given the lessons learned, they may feel that there are enough positives to make The Balsams work, probably not. That said, they're probably a more realistic option than Les.


Maybe they would be better, but would they even be interested?  Given the amount of work required at Balsams, I would say Arctaris would not be interested.  Granted Les started with an existing ski area in Sunday River, but he did build that out to pretty much what it is today.  I believe the entire ASC venture taught him lessons in terms of what works, what needs to be done right (and wasn't back then) to make this work.  You cannot argue the fact he has a passion for this project given how many times he has pivoted but kept trying to move it forward.


----------



## machski (Nov 8, 2022)

eatskisleep said:


> How does snowfall up there compare to the likes of Jay Peak?


Not as much as Jay, but it does get the most in NH and holds onto it a bit better than other areas.


----------



## cdskier (Nov 8, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Got a private tour yesterday.  Will definitely be very nice, just in the middle of no where.
> 
> Les thinks it'll attract people from NYC and all of NE. I dunno about that.....



What makes him think NYC people would go up there? That's a 6.5-7 hr drive from NYC to the Balsams.

Also was just looking at their website...some of the numbers seems a bit questionable to me...



Also kind of weird to use snowfall for one specific season instead of an average...


----------



## Edd (Nov 8, 2022)

cdskier said:


> What makes him think NYC people would go up there? That's a 6.5-7 hr drive from NYC to the Balsams.
> 
> Also was just looking at their website...some of the numbers seems a bit questionable to me...
> 
> ...


Perhaps market it as a premium, exclusive experience. 5 star everything, no unwashed masses.


----------



## cdskier (Nov 8, 2022)

Edd said:


> Perhaps market it as a premium, exclusive experience. 5 star everything, no unwashed masses.



That's about the only target audience you would get from NYC. But still not sure there's enough people in that target demographic for that to be one of your keys to success.


----------



## 2Planker (Nov 8, 2022)

Dixville land owner and 40+ year friend of Les....
Skied there last in the 80's, used to play golf there 3-4 x/yr in the 90's.
The Buffet there was possibly the best in all of NH, VT & ME.

Bring it on baby


----------



## EPB (Nov 8, 2022)

Edd said:


> Perhaps market it as a premium, exclusive experience. 5 star everything, no unwashed masses.


Could do the Le Massif thing and have a 3rd party resort operator run the hotel and golf.


----------



## EPB (Nov 8, 2022)

machski said:


> Maybe they would be better, but would they even be interested?  Given the amount of work required at Balsams, I would say Arctaris would not be interested.  Granted Les started with an existing ski area in Sunday River, but he did build that out to pretty much what it is today.  I believe the entire ASC venture taught him lessons in terms of what works, what needs to be done right (and wasn't back then) to make this work.  You cannot argue the fact he has a passion for this project given how many times he has pivoted but kept trying to move it forward.


We're way more in agreement than not. If you told me the place will be operational in 20 years, I'd think it would be more likely an Arctaris type owner than Les that got it off the ground. That said, I'd put sub 10% odds on either of them pulling it off.

Another place that could be an okay Arctaris option one day could be Burke. It seems like a very tough sell.


----------



## x10003q (Nov 8, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Got a private tour yesterday.  Will definitely be very nice, just in the middle of no where.
> 
> Les thinks it'll attract people from NYC and all of NE. I dunno about that.....


Les is delusional about NYC.
From NNJ, The Balsams is 7 hours. The only 2 major NE ski areas longer than The Balsams are Saddleback and Sugarloaf at 7:30. Even Mt Tremblant is under 7 hours.
The Balsams needs regular weekend visits to sell/rent real estate and asking people from NYC metro to pretty much drive by every other resort in NE (not to mention Gore and Whiteface) for weekends is just not realistic.


----------



## 2Planker (Nov 8, 2022)

x10003q said:


> Les is delusional about NYC.
> From NNJ, The Balsams is 7 hours. The only 2 major NE ski areas longer than The Balsams are Saddleback and Sugarloaf at 7:30. Even Mt Tremblant is under 7 hours.
> The Balsams needs regular weekend visits to sell/rent real estate and asking people from NYC metro to pretty much drive by every other resort in NE (not to mention Gore and Whiteface) for weekends is just not realistic.


I hear ya..... 
They've also mentioned an Airstrip could be possible in the future, as is the return of the BOS-Montreal Train already in process


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## jimmywilson69 (Nov 8, 2022)

Where did people used to visit from when it was open previously?


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## thetrailboss (Nov 8, 2022)

cdskier said:


> That's about the only target audience you would get from NYC. But still not sure there's enough people in that target demographic for that to be one of your keys to success.


Seems to be a lot of competition for that market. At least out here there is.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 8, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Where did people used to visit from when it was open previously?



I'm not sure from where, but there wasn't enough of them.  Tillotson did it as a hobby essentially.  He made a bunch of money off his balloon invention, moved to NH and bought an old grand hotel like he'd stay in as a child.  A friend of mine whose family has owned a classic hotel property on Cape Cod for 100+ years knew him well.  Said the property rarely turned a profit.  Once he died the family didn't have much interest in losing more money.  

So, there really isn't a recent history perspective on how to run the place profitably and where to draw customers from.  I'm guessing Montreal is the prime target, then Boston.


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## cdskier (Nov 8, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm not sure from where, but there wasn't enough of them.  Tillotson did it as a hobby essentially.  He made a bunch of money off his balloon invention, moved to NH and bought an old grand hotel like he'd stay in as a child.  A friend of mine whose family has owned a classic hotel property on Cape Cod for 100+ years knew him well.  Said the property rarely turned a profit.  Once he died the family didn't have much interest in losing more money.
> 
> So, there really isn't a recent history perspective on how to run the place profitably and where to draw customers from.  I'm guessing Montreal is the prime target, then Boston.



According to data on the New England Ski History website, they were only pulling in 22-34k skier visits some years. That's incredibly low. So agreed that where those people came from is pretty much irrelevant.


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## Smellytele (Nov 8, 2022)

cdskier said:


> According to data on the New England Ski History website, they were only pulling in 22-34k skier visits some years. That's incredibly low. So agreed that where those people came from is pretty much irrelevant.


Wasn’t it more of a summer resort than a winter one?


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## Newpylong (Nov 9, 2022)

It was both. Big snowmobile area as well and they had a good # of beds.


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## Smellytele (Nov 9, 2022)

Newpylong said:


> It was both. Big snowmobile area as well and they had a good # of beds.


But not much of a ski area.


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## Newpylong (Nov 9, 2022)

Yep, it was not a major ski destination at all. Coincidentally we ended up getting their groomers and fan guns after they folded.


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## cdskier (Nov 9, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> But not much of a ski area.



Hence the reason why where the small number of skier visitors that they previously had came from is irrelevant. But if Les wants to make this a "world class ski resort" and build it out to be the largest ski area in the east...he's going to need to get those numbers way up. And where he will draw those people from is a huge question mark.


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## eatskisleep (Nov 9, 2022)

cdskier said:


> Hence the reason why where the small number of skier visitors that they previously had came from is irrelevant. But if Les wants to make this a "world class ski resort" and build it out to be the largest ski area in the east...he's going to need to get those numbers way up. And where he will draw those people from is a huge question mark.


It is indeed the biggest question of them all. I know Les gets a lot of hate here (and a good chunk of it, rightly so…) but, if there is anyone who could pull it off, it’s him. Just my opinion. The odds aren’t in his favor, but there is a chance!


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## jimmywilson69 (Nov 9, 2022)

Cheap lodging, nice amenities, and good skiing will get people anywhere.


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## Smellytele (Nov 9, 2022)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Cheap lodging, nice amenities, and good skiing will get people anywhere.


Not sure they are going the cheap lodging route.


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## machski (Nov 9, 2022)

2Planker said:


> I hear ya.....
> They've also mentioned an Airstrip could be possible in the future, as is the return of the BOS-Montreal Train already in process


There's already a decent (compared to most NE ski areas) strip nt too far, Berlin.  Before The Balsams shut its doors, I flew a group up for the fall season from Philly to Berlin in a GV.  Couldn't believe I was landing a GV in Berlin!  Guarenteed, this is the target clientel LBO is looking for with the Balsams.  It will be like the airlines and trans-oceanic flights to some extent.  The premium passenger/guest will be where most of the $$ is made in smaller numbers.  Fill in the rest with your weekend traffic guests.  Which is why all the parts need to be ready (slopes/lodging/dining/spa etc) from day 1.  You cannot just start up the Balsams on the slopes alone.


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## x10003q (Nov 9, 2022)

machski said:


> There's already a decent (compared to most NE ski areas) strip nt too far, Berlin.  Before The Balsams shut its doors, I flew a group up for the fall season from Philly to Berlin in a GV.  Couldn't believe I was landing a GV in Berlin!  Guarenteed, this is the target clientel LBO is looking for with the Balsams.  It will be like the airlines and trans-oceanic flights to some extent.  The premium passenger/guest will be where most of the $$ is made in smaller numbers.  Fill in the rest with your weekend traffic guests.  Which is why all the parts need to be ready (slopes/lodging/dining/spa etc) from day 1.  You cannot just start up the Balsams on the slopes alone.


People who are flying private are never going to move the needle at The Balsams.


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## JDMRoma (Nov 9, 2022)

Smellytele said:


> Wasn’t it more of a summer resort than a winter one?


It was both for sure, summer they had the lake and Hiking and Winter was the Snowmobiling and Alpine / Cross country Skiing. The Cross Country trails were amazing.They also ran a culinary school there and meals were including with your stay. Granted it was pricey but everything was really good.
Hope it comes alive again, such a Beautiful area !


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## Tin Woodsman (Nov 9, 2022)

x10003q said:


> People who are flying private are never going to move the needle at The Balsams.


Yup.  Much easier to just fly 2 hours longer and have much more reliable conditions/glamorous setting in the Rockies.  Same reason Hermitage Club and Bear Creek/Plymouth Notch failed.  If you've got resources for a private ski club experience, you're not going to choose to locate that experience in New England.


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## snoseek (Nov 9, 2022)

JDMRoma said:


> It was both for sure, summer they had the lake and Hiking and Winter was the Snowmobiling and Alpine / Cross country Skiing. The Cross Country trails were amazing.They also ran a culinary school there and meals were including with your stay. Granted it was pricey but everything was really good.
> Hope it comes alive again, such a Beautiful area !


The Culinary school they had set up was fucking top notch. Just a few kids rolled out every year but godamn did they have a way better education and savings instead of debt and a world of opportunity coming out. I wish that was the norm.

Summer was way busier than winter up there and also a longer season.


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## deadheadskier (Nov 10, 2022)

snoseek said:


> The Culinary school they had set up was fucking top notch. Just a few kids rolled out every year but godamn did they have a way better education and savings instead of debt and a world of opportunity coming out. I wish that was the norm.
> 
> Summer was way busier than winter up there and also a longer season.



Part of the reason Ocean Properties was considering buying it was because of the culinary school.  They own 100+ hotels including the Wentworth in NH, many Bar Harbor properties and the Sagamore on Lake George.  They were considering using the Balsams as their training school for the company.   End of the day, they didn't see a good ROI with the amount of deferred maintenance the property needed.   That's saying something as they took the Wentworth from a vacant chicken coup of 30 years and made it the spectacular property it is now


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## snoseek (Nov 10, 2022)

deadheadskier said:


> Part of the reason Ocean Properties was considering buying it was because of the culinary school.  They own 100+ hotels including the Wentworth in NH, many Bar Harbor properties and the Sagamore on Lake George.  They were considering using the Balsams as their training school for the company.   End of the day, they didn't see a good ROI with the amount of deferred maintenance the property needed.   That's saying something as they took the Wentworth from a vacant chicken coup of 30 years and made it the spectacular property it is now


I'm guessing the Wentworth was a much safer bet and yeah the before and after there is amazing.


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## 2Planker (Nov 10, 2022)

machski said:


> There's already a decent (compared to most NE ski areas) strip nt too far, Berlin.  Before The Balsams shut its doors, I flew a group up for the fall season from Philly to Berlin in a GV.  Couldn't believe I was landing a GV in Berlin!  Guarenteed, this is the target clientel LBO is looking for with the Balsams.  It will be like the airlines and trans-oceanic flights to some extent.  The premium passenger/guest will be where most of the $$ is made in smaller numbers.  Fill in the rest with your weekend traffic guests.  Which is why all the parts need to be ready (slopes/lodging/dining/spa etc) from day 1.  You cannot just start up the Balsams on the slopes alone.


Correct, being from Conway we use Fryeburg, But did use Berlin years ago when Bethel was the destination


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## kickstand (Nov 10, 2022)

2Planker said:


> Correct, being from Conway we use Fryeburg, But did use Berlin years ago when Bethel was the destination


In North Conway, is all the concrete on the east side of North-South Rd, down towards Lowe's, the remnants of the old air field that used to be in that general area?  I seem to remember that from when I was a little kid, but nothing specific.


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## 2Planker (Nov 10, 2022)

kickstand said:


> In North Conway, is all the concrete on the east side of North-South Rd, down towards Lowe's, the remnants of the old air field that used to be in that general area?  I seem to remember that from when I was a little kid, but nothing specific.


  A group of local businessmen expressed a desire for a regional airport to provide additional means to access the Mount Washington Valley region. Discussions were underway between the Maine and New Hampshire Departments of Transportation to construct a new airport to improve economic development and air access within the region. The Eastern Slope Airport Authority (ESAA), was formed to commence efforts towards developing a new public airport. Land was purchased in Fryeburg, Maine and developed into what is known today as Eastern Slope Regional Airport (IZG).


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## Dickc (Nov 10, 2022)

kickstand said:


> In North Conway, is all the concrete on the east side of North-South Rd, down towards Lowe's, the remnants of the old air field that used to be in that general area?  I seem to remember that from when I was a little kid, but nothing specific.


I believe you are talking about where the Settlers Green Outlet Village now is.  Yes that was at one time an airport.


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## 2planks2coasts (Nov 16, 2022)

2Planker said:


> A group of local businessmen expressed a desire for a regional airport to provide additional means to access the Mount Washington Valley region. Discussions were underway between the Maine and New Hampshire Departments of Transportation to construct a new airport to improve economic development and air access within the region. The Eastern Slope Airport Authority (ESAA), was formed to commence efforts towards developing a new public airport. Land was purchased in Fryeburg, Maine and developed into what is known today as Eastern Slope Regional Airport (IZG).........


Any possibility that runway at IZG can ever be extended? 4200 ft is pretty short. BML (Berlin) has an extra thousand feet, opening it up to a bunch more aircraft types.


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## machski (Nov 16, 2022)

2planks2coasts said:


> Any possibility that runway at IZG can ever be extended? 4200 ft is pretty short. BML (Berlin) has an extra thousand feet, opening it up to a bunch more aircraft types.


Probably not much.  To the North of the runway you have round pond that appears to have adequate overrun space now, but any extension would negate that or require a pricey EMAS system to be installed.  To the south, there may be some room but there are wetlands on the corner of Route 5 and Lyman DR that would limit how much extension could be built.  Not to mention surrounding terrain.  Runway 32 already requires a fairly steep climb gradient for instrument traffic.  If the runway were to be extended North, the gradient required would steepen negating some of an extensions benefit in that direction.   For reference, even though Berlin is longer, it is also terrain challenged and is actually worse for the approach than Fryeburg due to the terrain.


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## 2Planker (Nov 16, 2022)

machski said:


> Probably not much.  To the North of the runway you have round pond that appears to have adequate overrun space now, but any extension would negate that or require a pricey EMAS system to be installed.  To the south, there may be some room but there are wetlands on the corner of Route 5 and Lyman DR that would limit how much extension could be built.  Not to mention surrounding terrain.  Runway 32 already requires a fairly steep climb gradient for instrument traffic.  If the runway were to be extended North, the gradient required would steepen negating some of an extensions benefit in that direction.   For reference, even though Berlin is longer, it is also terrain challenged and is actually worse for the approach than Fryeburg due to the terrain.


Thanx Mach. Fryeburg is a nicer in/out as a passenger. 
Wifey hated Berlin due to the steep ascent/descents. 
Always reminded me of Tegucigalpa without the cliffs


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## 2planks2coasts (Nov 16, 2022)

Cool. I've not been into either. We fly on old Lear 35's (I'm the nurse, not the pilot) so many smaller GA airports don't work.  If you haven't been into CYCG, shoot it in the sim sometime.
Tegucigalpa though....... Thankfully they only use Toncontin for domestic now, with international flights going to new airport at Palmerola.   The skiing is much better in the Whites though!   

With BML still a 45 minute drive from the Balsams, not sure what kind of traffic that might bring.  I can see the Wheels Up type folks arriving that way. Reasonable King Air flight from anywhere in the NE.


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## 2Planker (Nov 16, 2022)

2planks2coasts said:


> Cool. I've not been into either. We fly on old Lear 35's (I'm the nurse, not the pilot) so many smaller GA airports don't work.  If you haven't been into CYCG, shoot it in the sim sometime.
> Tegucigalpa though....... Thankfully they only use Toncontin for domestic now, with international flights going to new airport at Palmerola.   The skiing is much better in the Whites though!
> 
> With BML still a 45 minute drive from the Balsams, not sure what kind of traffic that might bring.  I can see the Wheels Up type folks arriving that way. Reasonable King Air flight from anywhere in the NE.


We still use the ole TGU as we're military aided and they're not fully over to toncontin yet...
  Most of where we are is right along the Honduran-Nicaraguan border.  
The water is done for 1,000 years due to all the gold mines. Tragic what the german's and canadians did there


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## machski (Nov 17, 2022)

2planks2coasts said:


> Cool. I've not been into either. We fly on old Lear 35's (I'm the nurse, not the pilot) so many smaller GA airports don't work.  If you haven't been into CYCG, shoot it in the sim sometime.
> Tegucigalpa though....... Thankfully they only use Toncontin for domestic now, with international flights going to new airport at Palmerola.   The skiing is much better in the Whites though!
> 
> With BML still a 45 minute drive from the Balsams, not sure what kind of traffic that might bring.  I can see the Wheels Up type folks arriving that way. Reasonable King Air flight from anywhere in the NE.


Well, like I've said, I've landed BML with a Gulfstream GV before.  Have not landed IZG with the Phenom 300 I fly now but have done PVC and Harbor Springs in MI (3700' long), one of Boyne's.  One of my colleagues just landed 0B1 with the Nom, that would be Bethel.  Kind of pissed he got to be the first one for that!!  IZG would work as is for several of our jet types but none of them work if contaminated (think snow/ice) and only Berlin would work wet runway as of now for that trifecta of BML/IZG/0B1.


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## ThatGuy (Nov 17, 2022)

2Planker said:


> We still use the ole TGU as we're military aided and they're not fully over to toncontin yet...
> Most of where we are is right along the Honduran-Nicaraguan border.


What do you do for work if you don’t mind me asking?


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## 2Planker (Nov 17, 2022)

ThatGuy said:


> What do you do for work if you don’t mind me asking?


Been in healthcare for 35 years at one of Boston's large teaching hospitals. 
Have started and worked with NGO's that operate in some of the globe's toughest places (Haiti, Nicaragua, Zambia, Zimbabwe, DR) .  Built 5 clinics in 4  different countries since 2002. 

The Nica project is going on 10 years now (Medical, Dental, Engineers, Public Health)
8 villages and 1 city of  over 100,000 now have solar powered artesian wells bringing potable water to all the communities and also to the newly rebuilt hospital for the first time in almost 100 years.  Still no Elec,  Internet or Phones....  3-4 weeks at a time, but worth it


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## 2planks2coasts (Nov 17, 2022)

machski said:


> Well, like I've said, I've landed BML with a Gulfstream GV before.  Have not landed IZG with the Phenom 300 I fly now but have done PVC and Harbor Springs in MI (3700' long), one of Boyne's.  One of my colleagues just landed 0B1 with the Nom, that would be Bethel.  Kind of pissed he got to be the first one for that!!  IZG would work as is for several of our jet types but none of them work if contaminated (think snow/ice) and only Berlin would work wet runway as of now for that trifecta of BML/IZG/0B1.


Nice! My employer just inherited a bunch of Phenom 300's. Bought a competitor with them on cert and several on order.  Unlikely I'll ever see the inside of them though.  We abuse planes pretty bad  on the Air Ambulance side, so the Lears, Hawkers and on rare occasions, our Challenger 601 are the nicest we get.


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## machski (Nov 17, 2022)

2planks2coasts said:


> Nice! My employer just inherited a bunch of Phenom 300's. Bought a competitor with them on cert and several on order.  Unlikely I'll ever see the inside of them though.  We abuse planes pretty bad  on the Air Ambulance side, so the Lears, Hawkers and on rare occasions, our Challenger 601 are the nicest we get.


I don't envy you getting patients on stretchers in or out of a Hawker, that is an odd door for full abled folks.  The Phenoms are nice but you have to honor the lack of reversers.  If it says it can't land because of conditions (wet/snow/slush/ice), it can't.  No additional reverse system to help out.  Could be tough for medevac ops.


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