# Hart F17 listed on al's ski barn web site



## jack97 (Jul 8, 2008)

Just noticed this on al ski barn web site. 09 ski msrp $1100, selling for $900. Just my .02,kind of steep for a mogul ski.

http://www.untracked.com/p2873-09_hart_javelin_f17_competition_mogul_ski.html


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## eastcoastpowderhound (Jul 8, 2008)

jack97 said:


> Just noticed this on al ski barn web site. 09 ski msrp $1100, selling for $900. Just my .02,kind of steep for a mogul ski.
> 
> http://www.untracked.com/p2873-09_hart_javelin_f17_competition_mogul_ski.html



Don't forget to add another $200 for a good binding...$1100 bump pkg...ouch!


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## Marc (Jul 8, 2008)

Quite a sidecut for a mogul ski, isn't it?  That's the same sidecut I had on my Rossi 177's I bought in 2001.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 8, 2008)

kind of steep for ANY ski if you ask me.


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## jack97 (Jul 8, 2008)

Marc said:


> Quite a sidecut for a mogul ski, isn't it?  That's the same sidecut I had on my Rossi 177's I bought in 2001.




Exactly. F17 geometry is similar to the gs or sl skis of the around that time. I have a k2 axis xr 106 64 95, that ski can hold on ice, quick on turns... lousy on crud.... sounds familiar.


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## Marc (Jul 8, 2008)

Yeah, come to think of it, same sidecut on my P50's from... whenever, '04 I think.

Those were 104 - 67... something else.


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## SkiDork (Jul 8, 2008)

th sidecut is what everyone has noticed about that ski - it sounds counter-intuitive for a mogul ski.  But apparently everyone who tries them (including Mike Morse who won the US Nationals) thinks they're the shnizzle.


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## drjeff (Jul 8, 2008)

SkiDork said:


> th sidecut is what everyone has noticed about that ski - it sounds counter-intuitive for a mogul ski.  But apparently everyone who tries them (including Mike Morse who won the US Nationals) thinks they're the shnizzle.



Didn't a good chunk of us laugh at "shaped" skis about a decade or so ago too??


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## Greg (Jul 8, 2008)

Anyone over 21 should really try to refrain from using terms like "shnizzle". 

I have to imagine there's more to this ski than sidecut. Tails are probably softer than your typical ski. I'm sure I [HART} will chime in here too. In any event I hope to try them this season.


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## jack97 (Jul 8, 2008)

Greg said:


> I have to imagine there's more to this ski than sidecut. Tails are probably softer than your typical ski.



Yep. Here's an interesting info from Chuck Martin on what he thinks of IDone's tail. 

http://forums.epicski.com/showpost.php?p=922538&postcount=42


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## SkiDork (Jul 8, 2008)

da bomb?


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Jul 8, 2008)

jack97 said:


> Just noticed this on al ski barn web site. 09 ski msrp $1100, selling for $900. Just my .02,kind of steep for a mogul ski.
> 
> http://www.untracked.com/p2873-09_hart_javelin_f17_competition_mogul_ski.html



Wow that's uber expensive for a skinny mogul ski...does that include the binders?


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## jack97 (Jul 8, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Wow that's uber expensive for a skinny mogul ski...does that include the binders?



No bindings. You could probally get them for 100-200, freestylers like the look/rossi px or fks.


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## Greg (Jul 8, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> Wow that's uber expensive for a skinny mogul ski...does that include the binders?



Expensive, yes. But I'm betting they would be the ultimate goose stomping tool...


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## Marc (Jul 8, 2008)

Greg said:


> Expensive, yes. But I'm betting they would be the ultimate goose stomping tool...



You'd bet wrong.  Crampons are much better.  Trust me, I've tried.


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## bvibert (Jul 8, 2008)

Too expensive for my budget.  Then again, so is $200...


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## Trekchick (Jul 8, 2008)

SkiDork said:


> th sidecut is what everyone has noticed about that ski - it sounds counter-intuitive for a mogul ski.  But apparently everyone who tries them (including Mike Morse who won the US Nationals) thinks they're the shnizzle.



Sidecut is mosdef not the only thing different about these skis.
I demoed them on a day when I had beaten myself up and didn't figure I had another run in me.  The F17's were so much fun I got more than one run and was grinning the whole time.
Review here

I understand that I[hart] and Chuck Martin had a nice discussion at Whistler.  Maybe some insight is heading our way.


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## Trekchick (Jul 8, 2008)




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## Philpug (Jul 8, 2008)

drjeff said:


> Didn't a good chunk of us laugh at "shaped" skis about a decade or so ago too??


EXACTLY.



Greg said:


> Anyone over 21 should really try to refrain from using terms like "shnizzle".
> 
> I have to imagine there's more to this ski than sidecut. Tails are probably softer than your typical ski. I'm sure I [HART} will chime in here too. In any event I hope to try them this season.



Mogul skiing is evolving as we type. These competitors are skiing at speeds that mortal bump skis cannot hold up at. The shape and construction of the F17 is for mogul skiers who ski bumps, not slap them. 

I will also add that we are aware that we have one of the most if not THE most expensive bump ski out there. We also know that this ski is on par with any top of the line, hand built race ski on the market. It is expensive, but it is also very well worth it.


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## mondeo (Jul 8, 2008)

Deneen could crush me using Atomic GS skis. The argument they're good for top level bump skiers doesn't really hold for me. I need a ski that's good for me.

And when I can get three and half pairs of Cabrawlers for one pair of F17s, the durability argument doesn't hold up either.

Just don't tell the rep I try to demo them from that I think that way, though...

Crap. I think he heard me...


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## Trekchick (Jul 8, 2008)

mondeo said:


> Deneen could crush me using Atomic GS skis. The argument they're good for top level bump skiers doesn't really hold for me. I need a ski that's good for me.
> 
> And when I can get three and half pairs of Cabrawlers for one pair of F17s, the durability argument doesn't hold up either.
> 
> ...


From someone who's not spectacular in the bumps, the draw for me is that it was evident that it made my bump skiing easier, (after being beat up at the end of a day) yet is substantial enough to ski on alternate terrain, if you don't want to spend the whole day in the bumps, and don't have the convenience of easily changing out your skis.

Much more versatile than I would have imagined.


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## jack97 (Jul 8, 2008)

Trekchick said:


>



Deneen has good technique, I want to strip it off  of youtube and study it some more. 

Having said that, the F17 isn't making him keep his hip in position, rolling his knees with the weigth shift, that c twist with the upper torso and so on. That takes years of hard work and it definitely shows.  You can't buy a turn like that, you have to earn it.


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## Philpug (Jul 8, 2008)

mondeo said:


> Deneen could crush me using Atomic GS skis. The argument they're good for top level bump skiers doesn't really hold for me. I need a ski that's good for me.



Talk to Richie Morgan from Stratton, Bob Barnes from Epic, Nate Preston and Rob Day from Waterville Valley, Matt Gnuza, Deb Newsome, Justin Fiskov from Kton....This ski will help you get better as a bump skier. This is a ski to ski bumps, nut survive them.  



mondeo said:


> And when I can get three and half pairs of Cabrawlers for one pair of F17s, the durability argument doesn't hold up either.



You can get three and a half Ford Mustangs for the price of a BMW M3 too 



mondeo said:


> Just don't tell the rep I try to demo them from that I think that way, though...
> 
> Crap. I think he heard me...



You are welcome to demo them .


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## jack97 (Jul 8, 2008)

Trekchick said:


> From someone who's not spectacular in the bumps, the draw for me is that it was evident that it made my bump skiing easier, (after being beat up at the end of a day) yet is substantial enough to ski on alternate terrain, if you don't want to spend the whole day in the bumps, and don't have the convenience of easily changing out your skis.
> 
> Much more versatile than I would have imagined.



Hey Tchick, I don't mean to be messing with you but thats the problem, the F17 may be to easy to turn. When I was getting schooled by Evan up at Whaleback, he was carving out turns forward and backwards and ripping down a steep mogul course he rutted himself. The guy was on Armada twin tips, he was telling me stories about how Donna Weinbretch can ski on any thing and make it work. Damn....he was even doing those same drills Deneen was doing (skiing on one leg) with his Armadas. My point is, it takes technique, it's not the ski.


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## Trekchick (Jul 8, 2008)

You are absolutely right, you/I can't buy a turn, or a zipper line for that matter.  Patrick is an amazing bumper, as is Michelle Roark.

Since I'm not a great mogul skier, but a hack and an aspiring bumper, I took my demo time as a sign of decent demo from someone who can entertain the properties of a ski and write about it.  After skiing, while talking with Patrick and Michelle, it was interesting to hear Michelle say, she'd been on an abundance of mogul skis(duh) and the F17 blew all others away, hands down.
Can't buy a turn(or zipperline) but she can certainly distinguish the difference between a good mogul ski and a great mogul ski.

I'm not saying everyone should go out and buy the F17, but I think you're cheating yourself if you dismiss it and dont' seize an opportunity to demo them.


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## mondeo (Jul 8, 2008)

I [Hart] Skiing said:


> You can get three and a half Ford Mustangs for the price of a BMW M3 too



Picked the wrong guy to use a car analogy with...

I'll stick with my STI, which'll hang with a M3 for $20K+ less. :razz:

Mustang vs. M3 is like comparing cheapo race GS skis to premium All-mountain skis. You would have been much better making the comparison of Mazda Miata vs. Lotus Elise.


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## Philpug (Jul 8, 2008)

mondeo said:


> Picked the wrong guy to use a car analogy with...
> 
> I'll stick with my STI, which'll hang with a M3 for $20K+ less. :razz:
> 
> Mustang vs. M3 is like comparing cheapo race GS skis to premium All-mountain skis. You would have been much better making the comparison of Mazda Miata vs. Lotus Elise.



I know a few things about cars myself and your example is along the same lines. The reason I chose the M3, is because the BMW and these skis are on par on build quality. I am a Subie guy through and through (I have owned about 15 of them), as good as the STi is..it is not the car the M3 is.


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## jack97 (Jul 8, 2008)

Trekchick said:


> I'm not saying everyone should go out and buy the F17, but I think you're cheating yourself if you dismiss it and dont' seize an opportunity to demo them.



IMO, time and money better spent on mogul camp or lessons from a mogul coach. 


After stripping off the vid, I slowed it down on windows media player. Deneen is getting caught a little flat footed. He's not getting enuf shin pressure, sometimes he is collapsing at the waist when he absorbs the bumps, one can see that on the side view. Its hard to see on the vid since it was shot slanted but I heard the mtn hood course is flat, so its hard to get that shin pressure. Or..... it could be the ski allowing him to turn with less shin pressure... hard to say but I'm sure we can voice more biases.


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## Trekchick (Jul 8, 2008)

I am sorry that you've taken my comments so personally, in the interest of sharing the enthusiasm for a pair of skis I thoroughly enjoyed and will have in my quiver. 
You'll be happy to know that I am also spending some money on a mogul camp. 



I'm truly stumped at the nitpicking where Patricks video is concerned. I posted it more for Mogul stoke than anything.  He is after all, 2008 Rookie of the year, 2008 US Freestyle Skier of the year, being coached by the best, for the best.  I guess instead of picking apart the skiing, I was thinking, Man that kid rips!!!


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## Greg (Jul 8, 2008)

Trekchick said:


>



Deneen has a real "turny" style and perhaps the more defined sidecut of the F17 compliments that. Not saying I will ever be at that level, but I have a more turny style in the bumps too so I really want to get my hands on the F17.



jack97 said:


> You can't buy a turn like that, you have to earn it.



Word. Skiing bumps well probably takes more discipline than just about any other form of skiing.



jack97 said:


> IMO, time and money better spent on mogul camp or lessons from a mogul coach.



Tough to argue with that. I'm a self taught bumper but plan to do a camp this season. I think I'm at the point where I really could benefit from some direct coaching.


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## jack97 (Jul 8, 2008)

Trekchick said:


> I am sorry that you've taken my comments so personally, in the interest of sharing the enthusiasm for a pair of skis I thoroughly enjoyed and will have in my quiver.
> You'll be happy to know that I am also spending some money on a mogul camp.
> 
> 
> ...



Not taking it personally, analogous to your passion for skis, I have for mogul skiing. I love breaking down film and watching techniques. Don't get me wrong, Deneen is good but he needs to improve, I think he and his coaches know that. When Jon Mosely had all those US titles under his belt, he got smoked when he tried to take it to the next level, meaning the world cup tour. That setback drove him to work even harder. 

And no, I'm not a coach nor a competitor, I would give up parts of my anatomy to ski like Deneen.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 9, 2008)

I look at the $900 price tag as none other than demographic targeting

I bought a pair of brand new 06 Rossi Bandit BX's this spring for $200 delivered.  I bought these as my 'bump' ski as the 06' B2's I bought at the beginning of the season ($335 new with new bindings, mounted and delivered) left just a tad to be desired in the bump arena.  The BX's are great.  I'm guessing the F17 I'd probably enjoy more.  That said, I look at $900 as a very solid pair of skis and a season's worth of lift ticket expenses for me.  I haven't spent over $450 for a pair of skis mounted in 15 years and I've always bought new skis, they just happen to be from a couple seasons back.

In another arena in life, I recently went into a local kitchen shop as I have a cabinet with a blind corner that I'd like to install a drawer pull out apparatus to make the space more usable that is difficult to reach by hand.  The lady at the store tried to sell me on this $943 stainless shelving unit for the space.  That's right, $943.  Granted it was a pretty sweet system, but a simple half moon pull out deal from Home Depot will cost $150.  Guess which one I'm going with?

Hart has their mind on a certain demographic with their $1100 bump skis.  If they can get it, good for them.....that's capitalism.  Maybe I'll get lucky three years from now and find a pair of 175's in a warehouse for $300.


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## Philpug (Jul 9, 2008)

jack97 said:


> IMO, time and money better spent on mogul camp or lessons from a mogul coach.



As mentioned earlier, we have some of the top mogul coaches in the east on F17's. They feel the F17 can teach better technique.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 9, 2008)

I [Hart] Skiing said:


> As mentioned earlier, we have some of the top mogul coaches in the east on F17's. They feel the F17 can teach better technique.



Fair enough.....

However, in life, I've always felt it's the wizard not the wand.....

....not discounting the benefits of a good wand; proper equipment helps in all aspects of life (get your head of the gutter trekchick  ) .  Just sayin' that statement is kinda bold.  I personally would have serious reservations about how much better a bump skier I'd be skiing the $1100 new Harts over the $200 BX's I purchased for skiing bumps.  The returns for me would be diminished and doubtfully worth the extra $900 especially given my personal financial constraints.


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## jack97 (Jul 9, 2008)

I [Hart] Skiing said:


> As mentioned earlier, we have some of the top mogul coaches in the east on F17's. They feel the F17 can teach better technique.



The cynic in me thinks the coaches want sponsorship for their kids (which is a good thing). I talk to bumpers and heard stories about they would put up with equipment just b/c they are sponsored. Also it seems hart is putting into distribution lengths less than 160 cm, the web site offered 148. Lengths just right for the teenage bumpers. Rossi scratch moguls go down to 150 cm. Given the other choices would be fat twin tips, a scratch or a f17 can teach better tech.


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## jack97 (Jul 9, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> Hart has their mind on a certain demographic with their $1100 bump skis.  If they can get it, good for them.....that's capitalism.



Yep, that is capitalism!  My concern is how Hart would effect tier pricing. 1100 mrsp for a ski alone, if successful, the high volume guys like K2, volkl, dynastar(?) and rossignol may decide to increase their msrp.


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## Philpug (Jul 9, 2008)

jack97 said:


> The cynic in me thinks the coaches want sponsorship for their kids (which is a good thing). I talk to bumpers and heard stories about they would put up with equipment just b/c they are sponsored. Also it seems hart is putting into distribution lengths less than 160 cm, the web site offered 148. Lengths just right for the teenage bumpers. Rossi scratch moguls go down to 150 cm. Given the other choices would be fat twin tips, a scratch or a f17 can teach better tech.



I will also add, most of these coaches sought us out, not the other way around.


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## jack97 (Jul 9, 2008)

jack97 said:


> The cynic in me thinks the coaches want sponsorship for their kids (which is a good thing). I talk to bumpers and heard stories about they would put up with equipment just b/c they are sponsored. Also it seems hart is putting into distribution lengths less than 160 cm, the web site offered 148. Lengths just right for the teenage bumpers. Rossi scratch moguls go down to 150 cm. Given the other choices would be fat twin tips, a scratch or a f17 can teach better tech.





I [Hart] Skiing said:


> I will also add, most of these coaches sought us out, not the other way around.



Yep, that doesn' t surpise me, not enuf mogul sponsors in this game. Coaches are looking for a soft ski with at most a gs cut (circa 2000), ranging from 140 cm to 160 cm.... pickings are slim.


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## Philpug (Jul 9, 2008)

jack97 said:


> Yep, that doesn' t surpise me, not enuf mogul sponsors in this game. Coaches are looking for a soft ski with at most a gs cut (circa 2000), ranging from 140 cm to 160 cm.... pickings are slim.



Shhh, don't tell anyone, but we will also be offering 125, 135 and 145 lengths too!


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## jack97 (Jul 9, 2008)

I [Hart] Skiing said:


> Shhh, don't tell anyone, but we will also be offering 125, 135 and 145 lengths too!



Innovative move by Hart, sell high end skis though the kids. To make the freestyle team and to place in competitions, little Johnny or Jane has to have the right ski. Puts pressure on mommy and daddy to deliver the goods else they feel guilty. Very smart, analogues to the Happy Meals McD started long ago.


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## Greg (Jul 9, 2008)

I [Hart] Skiing said:


> Shhh, don't tell anyone, but we will also be offering *125*, 135 and 145 lengths too!



Sweet! Perfect for trailboss.


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## SkiDork (Jul 9, 2008)

I [Hart] Skiing said:


> Shhh, don't tell anyone, but we will also be offering 125, 135 and 145 lengths too!



Phil - are those shorter ones the "T" model?

Also - you mentioned the K coaches (Matt Deb and Justin) - are they gonna be able to get their hands on a pair or 2 for demo's for the team?


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## Philpug (Jul 9, 2008)

jack97 said:


> Innovative move by Hart, sell high end skis though the kids. To make the freestyle team and to place in competitions, little Johnny or Jane has to have the right ski. Puts pressure on mommy and daddy to deliver the goods else they feel guilty. Very smart, analogues to the Happy Meals McD started long ago.


Thank.s



SkiDork said:


> Phil - are those shorter ones the "T" model?
> 
> Also - you mentioned the K coaches (Matt Deb and Justin) - are they gonna be able to get their hands on a pair or 2 for demo's for the team?



These will be shortter than the T models. They will be "J". These will be a lighter construction for a lighter skier. There will be an overlap at 145 (J) and 148 (T), a bigger, stronger kid/young adult will be on the T, a lighter developing kid might be on the 145 (J). 

Forerunner will have demo's along with Matt, if you need something else, just let me know.


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## jack97 (Jul 9, 2008)

Greg said:


> Deneen has a real "turny" style and perhaps the more defined sidecut of the F17 compliments that. Not saying I will ever be at that level, but I have a more turny style in the bumps too so I really want to get my hands on the F17.



Another guy who has a real turny style is Jon Smart, thats who Deneen reminds of when he skied that run... funny, Deneen skis differently when he's in competition. 

If you get a chance, check out Smart's video, lots of good stuff in there. 






Greg said:


> Tough to argue with that. I'm a self taught bumper but plan to do a camp this season. I think I'm at the point where I really could benefit from some direct coaching.



One of the best things I got from direct coaching (in terms of equipment) is boots... the ankle flex. Check out the flex these guys have. I haven't posted it anywhere else and I'm still hesitant of posting it here. I don't know the guys but what amazes me is the flex and the shin pressure they have.


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## Greg (Jul 9, 2008)

AZ's very own powbmps and 180 demonstrate great shin pressure. They both consistently ski on the balls of their feet:

powbmps (red pants)


180 (green pants)


The two best AZ bumpers I've skied with without question.


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## SkiDork (Jul 9, 2008)

I [Hart] Skiing said:


> These will be shortter than the T models. They will be "J". These will be a lighter construction for a lighter skier. There will be an overlap at 145 (J) and 148 (T), a bigger, stronger kid/young adult will be on the T, a lighter developing kid might be on the 145 (J).
> 
> Forerunner will have demo's along with Matt, if you need something else, just let me know.



Awesome!  Thanks a lot.

Iceman is a very aggressive bump skier, but he's only 77 pounds.  I'm guessing he'll want to try out the J.  Looking forward to the season.


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## jack97 (Jul 9, 2008)

Greg said:


> AZ's very own powbmps and 180 demonstrate great shin pressure. They both consistently ski on the balls of their feet:
> 
> 
> The two best AZ bumpers I've skied with without question.




Powbmps is a cool guy, skied with him last season, he put up with my hacking on goose when it was slick. 

Notice the boots Chris was using? They were Krypton Pros, I'm not pimping the kryptons but I do think the cabrio design and the foward lean is the key.


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## bigbog (Jul 9, 2008)

*...I don't think this is the only area of life...*



jack97 said:


> Innovative move by Hart, sell high end skis though the kids. To make the freestyle team and to place in competitions, little Johnny or Jane has to have the right ski. Puts pressure on mommy and daddy to deliver the goods else they feel guilty. Very smart, analogues to the Happy Meals McD started long ago.


..Not disagreeing with ya' jack97,
...But I think this isn't anything new in this materialistic society...("Those who own the gold...rule")...coming from the ski industry....or car industry, for that matter.


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## mondeo (Jul 9, 2008)

jack97 said:


> Notice the boots Chris was using? They were Krypton Pros, I'm not pimping the kryptons but I do think the cabrio design and the foward lean is the key.



If you're not gonna pimp 'em, I will.

The biggest difference I noticed when going to Kryptons was how much easier it was to stand tall while keeping my weight forward. Simple geometry: the more forward lean, the farther forward your cg when you're upright from the knees up. I'm thinking about putting the bigger wedge in back next year. Love the boots, just need to get the fit sorted out a little. Also love the cabrio- allows for a stiff boot without the shin bash, and good flex characteristic.

I'm gonna let up on my reservations about the F17 for a while, maybe even until I try demoing them. I've put my point forward, and now I will let I [Hart] rest a little, or at least focus on Jack97.

Incidentally, the Elan Bloodline is (sorta) up on ski-depot.com, looks to be priced in line with other bump skis as far as MSRP goes.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 9, 2008)

I'm far more intrigued about how a pair of Kryptos or Full Tilt Ski Boots might help my bump skiing than actual skis themselves.

I've got no qualms droppin $500-$600 on ski boots, but can't see dumping the same amount of coin on a pair of skis and bindings when 'new' old skis are readily available for half that.

To me, boots are without a doubt the most important piece of gear you own


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## jack97 (Jul 9, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> I'm far more intrigued about how a pair of Kryptos or Full Tilt Ski Boots might help my bump skiing than actual skis themselves.
> 
> I've got no qualms droppin $500-$600 on ski boots, but can't see dumping the same amount of coin on a pair of skis and bindings when 'new' old skis are readily available for half that.
> 
> To me, boots are without a doubt the most important piece of gear you own



Evan up at Whaleback recommends them, the Kryptons and any cabrio design. Basically, my session with him was about staying forward and getting that weight up front. After my lesson, I had a bad case of shin bang, couldn't do anything steep for a week. Thats when I dediced to get the Kryptons, a local place I trust stocks them and they let me try out the flex. They had nothing my size but I found the right ones on the net for around $290.

What I'm finding out with more forward lean is that I have more range to move my hip. Kind of important for clearing them after cresting the bumps. 



Here's Dale Begg Smith with flexon comp (older version of FT).... the golden standard for mogul turns.







Jen Heil with full tilt


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## Philpug (Jul 10, 2008)

I was in Flexons for 20 years..been in the Krypton since (before) they came out. The Krypton is a Flexon on steriods.


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## Trekchick (Jul 10, 2008)

Gotta love the Krypton Storm.  Makes me very happy!


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## jack97 (Jul 10, 2008)

Here's some pearl of wisdom from John Smart, this was filmed by a poster from BMM's site. John talks about using the front of the ski. When doing that, its even more important to get that weigth forward and get the shin pressure or forward lean going. 





From another thread.....



I [Hart] Skiing said:


> I will say, even the people who demo'ed the F17 and felt it might be too much shape (for their style and ability) said it was the fasted bump ski they ever skied.


Also, John mentions not over turning and not using the tail. I heard the same from other coaches, some have dull the edges so ski doesn't catch at all (prevents over turning). In a way I can understand why some may not like the F17 since it could have too much shape. 

BTW, I'm not using this as bait, just thinking out loud, time will tell....


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## deadheadskier (Jul 10, 2008)

jack97 said:


> Evan up at Whaleback recommends them, the Kryptons and any cabrio design. Basically, my session with him was about staying forward and getting that weight up front. After my lesson, I had a bad case of shin bang, couldn't do anything steep for a week. Thats when I dediced to get the Kryptons, a local place I trust stocks them and they let me try out the flex. They had nothing my size but I found the right ones on the net for around $290.
> 
> What I'm finding out with more forward lean is that I have more range to move my hip. Kind of important for clearing them after cresting the bumps.
> 
> ...



curious where you picked them up for $290.  the fiance might kill me as she wants new bedroom furniture, but my boots are five years old and I'm due....

...need to try them on in a store first.  from my understanding both the kryptons and full tilts are better designed for narrower feet and unfortunately mine are a bit on the wide and flat side


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## jack97 (Jul 10, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> curious where you picked them up for $290.  the fiance might kill me as she wants new bedroom furniture, but my boots are five years old and I'm due....
> 
> ...need to try them on in a store first.  from my understanding both the kryptons and full tilts are better designed for narrower feet and unfortunately mine are a bit on the wide and flat side



After season sale/clearance on the net. 

I went to ski haus over at Wilmington MA, they had the Krypton pro and rampages. The boot fitter sized me up, they had none in my size but had ones two sizes up. I like the flex on the rampages, pros seem to stiff... granted I weigh only 145 -150. What hurt even more was that they had the rampages going for 290, pros around low 400. I have wide toes and they narrow to an average heel. Fitter said it should be OK with the Kryptons if I blindly buy the right size, the fitter even said if I got them within the month, he would tweak the fit for me... very cool of him. Once I found the deal, he added a heel lift and footbeds, seem to do the trick, I don't recall any sore spots after a day of bumping. A month later, I found another great deal, Krypton Cross for 240, free shipping.... couldn't resist so I pulled the trigger (they are still in my offce, haven't brought them home yet). 


Evogear was one of the places I was eyeing, here's the page for the rampages/moro and another for the full tilt. 

http://www.evogear.com/shop/ski/boots/dalbello/p_all.aspx
http://www.evogear.com/shop/ski/boots/full-tilt/p_all.aspx


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## Trekchick (Jul 10, 2008)

If you have a wide ish foot, the Krypton may not be the boot for you, unless you have some work done on them.
They have a narrow forefoot, and a narrow to average heel.

There is more to the flex than just "flex" another distinction of the Dalbello Krypton series is the hinge point.
Take a look at the Rampage in this pic and the hinge point, next to the Nordica(randomly picked from a bunch of boots)
The hinge point definitely lends to the natural flex and is probably why most who ski the Kryptons either love them or hate them. I love mine!!!








Pics were taken from REI's web site where there are deals to be had on a few select sizes.
http://www.rei.com/category/40004332


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## jack97 (Jul 10, 2008)

Trekchick said:


> The hinge point definitely lends to the natural flex and is probably why most who ski the Kryptons either love them or hate them.



Then you will learn to love them. IMO, the people who hate them don't like the aft/fore flex... basically thats what the cabrio design is all about. 

BTW, the hinge point is slightly higher on the ft. Some of the old timer bumpers like the full tilts over the kryptons. I think you won't go wrong either way, or you can find a soft lange and play around with the boot to give you softer flex and more range. 

BTW2, Deneen was on the lange, the baby blue... would not surpise me if he made the standard tweaks on them.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 11, 2008)

Thanks for the feedback guys.  I'll just have to try them on.  One of the things that particularly interests me about the Krypton is the heel performance I've read about.  That always seems to be my biggest issue as around the toe area my feet are a tad wide, then they taper back to narrow at the ankle, so it's always been a challenge finding a good fit there.  For many, many years I simply bought a Lange that was a size up, until my last/current boot which is a Dolomite that has a fifth buckle running essentially right where the middle buckle on the Krypton runs.  But, the boots are near dead, so time to scope out something new


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## jack97 (Jul 11, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> I'll just have to try them on.  One of the things that particularly interests me about the Krypton is the heel performance I've read about.  That always seems to be my biggest issue as around the toe area my feet are a tad wide, then they taper back to narrow at the ankle, so it's always been a challenge finding a good fit there.



The guy who fitted me has the pros and said most of his buds are on them, he said that the dalbello and kryptons in general have slightly larger volume. And yeah, that middle buckle is great, it does lock in the heel, IMO, one of the best features of the design. Generally something most do not consider. 

You probally know this, but the pro can be altered to have a softer flex and they come with a softer footbed. So you can make them into a rampage or a cross.

Along with Ski haus (salem NH ?) another place that stock kryptons in NH is golf and ski warehouse. They have the ~price i got them for.

http://www.golfskiwarehouse.com/category.aspx?categoryID=891


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## deadheadskier (Jul 11, 2008)

Golf and Ski is where I plan on heading to check them out.....right near my house.  well, 8 miles, but that's NH for ya :lol:


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## Trekchick (Jul 11, 2008)

Deadheadskier, if you have a wider forefoot, slimming to a narrow-ish heel, the Krypton is probably, sadly, not the right boot for you.
The Dalbello line has other boots with a higher volume that will likely fit your foot, but the Krypton tends to be narrow in the forefoot.
A for instance:
My husband wears a 9 1/2 B work boot.  He is in the Krypton Il'Moro.
When he spent time with the boot fitter, the forefoot was perfect, maybe even a bit snug, but the heel needed some significant padding.  This fitter, as well as the fitter I went to when I had mine fitted, explained that it was common for the Krypton line to be low volume in the forefoot, and narrow to medium volume in the heel.
I have an extremely narrow foot (7 1/2 N), and the Krypton Storm fits me perfect without alterations, just needed to have the intuition liner heated and molded to my feet.

*I don't claim to know all about boots, but I know Dalbello, and specifically Krypton extremely well.


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## SkiDork (Jul 11, 2008)

Trekchick said:


> Deadheadskier, if you have a wider forefoot, slimming to a narrow-ish heel, the Krypton is probably, sadly, not the right boot for you.
> The Dalbello line has other boots with a higher volume that will likely fit your foot, but the Krypton tends to be narrow in the forefoot.
> A for instance:
> My husband wears a 9 1/2 B work boot.  He is in the Krypton Il'Moro.
> ...




Trekchick - for Iceman, who has outgrown his current boots, narrow foot (size 7-1/2) 11 year old kid 76 lbs 4'11" B competitor.  Any input on a Dalbello Krypton model we should be looking for?

We usually get his new boots at the swap (Killington) each year, usually find a decent pair for under $50.  Prolly won't find something like that though.  But I'm def gonna be looking for something he can flex more, this past season he had Lange race boot, prolly not the best for a kid bumper...


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## jack97 (Jul 11, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> That always seems to be my biggest issue as around the toe area my feet are a tad wide, then they taper back to narrow at the ankle, so it's always been a challenge finding a good fit there.





deadheadskier said:


> Golf and Ski is where I plan on heading to check them out.....right near my house.  well, 8 miles, but that's NH for ya :lol:




Keep these things in mind (pad stuff around the heel) when you try out the fit. One of the bumpers from BMM's forum turned us on to them.  

http://tognar.com/boot_heater_warmer_fitting_dryer_canting_dryers_ski_snowboard.html


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## Trekchick (Jul 11, 2008)

IIRC the Krypton is not made in an mens adult boot size smaller than 24.  If my memory serves, a 7 1/2 is something like a 25/25.5.
Depending on how well he can flex a boot(11 is a tough age group to guess), he may really like the rampage, which is a park boot, or a cross which is the basic Krypton.  The Pro and Ilmoro would likely be a lot more boot that he would want or use.  I[hart] will correct me if I'm wrong.  I can always count on that 
The Rampage can be found for a bargain in a lot of different locations.   This deal on REI is really good http://www.rei.com/product/759206?c...-AC4E-DD11-98CA-001422107090&mr:referralID=NA


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## SkiDork (Jul 11, 2008)

thanks.  The rampage looks like a winner.  Might not want to go for a new boot, seeing as how he outgrows it every year.  But I'll keep my eye out for them.


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## jack97 (Jul 11, 2008)

this is the krypton jr. Too bad they are sold out. I'm keeping an eye out for my kid.

http://www.ski-depot.com/miva/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=SDO&Product_Code=dalbelkrjr07


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## Trekchick (Jul 11, 2008)

SkiDork said:


> thanks.  The rampage looks like a winner.  Might not want to go for a new boot, seeing as how he outgrows it every year.  But I'll keep my eye out for them.


The good news is that he's teetering on the edge of a 25-25.5, and they are the same shell with different liners.  That may be a good boot for a couple years, depending on growth.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 11, 2008)

I Hart....so sorry to totally hijack your thread, especially after admitting there's no way I'd pay anywhere north of $400 flat for your skis 

BUT.....back to the Krypton :lol:

I just tried on the Rampage in my size as they didn't have the Krypton Pro.  The fit was excellent, but it was clear the boot wasn't the right choice for me.  Even cranked, my 200 pounds was over flexing these boots and I need something a bit stiffer....my words and the boot fitters words after discussing the terrain I ski.

I may look for online deals on Kryptons, but my question for those who are familiar is how similar can I expect the overall general fit of the Krypton to be in comparison with the Rampage?  I recognize that the liner is heat customizable for the Krytpon, so I will be able to change it to a degree.  My question is more the overall volume and inside dimensions.  Pretty close?


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## Trekchick (Jul 11, 2008)

I [Hart] is more knowledgable about Kryptons than I am, but I believe the Rampage and Pro are from the same last, but have different tweeks to make the pro stiffer.
You'll soon find out that he doesn't get upset with hijacks as long as you're talking gear.



deadheadskier said:


> I Hart....so sorry to totally hijack your thread, especially after admitting there's no way I'd pay anywhere north of $400 flat for your skis
> 
> BUT.....back to the Krypton :lol:
> 
> ...


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## jack97 (Jul 11, 2008)

Hey!  This was my post and I grant thou permission to hijack.


The boot fitter over at ski haus said they are the same volume. If you take a look at the specs, the rampage's shell is made up of a different material than the cross and pros but they look like the same design, the tongue on the rampage is the softer version tongue of the pro. I have both the cross and rampage, they both have the same fit. I would bet the farm the pros are the same. 

btw, I'm glad you tried it and found it to be an excellent fit, the next part is finding the deal.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 11, 2008)

jack97 said:


> btw, I'm glad you tried it and found it to be an excellent fit, the next part is finding the deal.



Well this means I need to get bedroom furniture shopping and quick.  :lol:   The faster I appease the lady with what she desires, the quicker I can get the new boots without her getting cranky :lol:


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## Trekchick (Jul 11, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> Well this means I need to get bedroom furniture shopping and quick.  :lol:   The faster I appease the lady with what she desires, the quicker I can get the new boots without her getting cranky :lol:








To think that my husband came home to find that I bought him the Il'Moro's and new skis, to add to his quiver before forcing him to go to Arapahoe Basin.
My husband's life clearly sux compared to yours.


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## Trekchick (Jul 11, 2008)

jack97 said:


> Hey!  This was my post and I grant thou permission to hijack..


Hijacks are all good as long as they don't turn hateful and political, eh?


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## jack97 (Jul 11, 2008)

Trekchick said:


> Hijacks are all good as long as they don't turn hateful and political, eh?



And pushy..... used car salemans annoy me. Oh, wrong thread.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 11, 2008)

Trekchick said:


> To think that my husband came home to find that I bought him the Il'Moro's and new skis, to add to his quiver before forcing him to go to Arapahoe Basin.
> My husband's life clearly sux compared to yours.



I think you need to be pen pals with my fiance :lol:


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## Philpug (Jul 11, 2008)

having been in Kryptons for the past 4 years or so and having had every variation inc IL Moro's...I would never go back to a Flexon. I skied my old Flexons once after having Kryptons and they just felt dead.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 11, 2008)

I [Hart] Skiing said:


> having been in Kryptons for the past 4 years or so and having had every variation inc IL Moro's...I would never go back to a Flexon. I skied my old Flexons once after having Kryptons and they just felt dead.



care to comment on my question concerning overall fit variations between the Rampage and Krypton?  I tried the Rampage today and it fit GREAT, but definitely too soft of a boot for me.  I'm thinking about ordering a Krypton blind over the internet in the same size, which is a tad scary.  Never ordered boots online before, but if I have confidence that the Krypton will fit the same as the Rampage, I'll go for it....


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## Philpug (Jul 11, 2008)

They are the same shells. The liner is where they differ. 

Don't let the soft flex detour you. The boot is fairly soft in a forward flex, but the lateral rigidity is where Kryptons excel.


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## jack97 (Jul 11, 2008)

dhs

If it means anything, Evan was on the pros. He is 6 feet plus and when he was competing, he weighed 188. The pros comes with more tweaks to make it stiff or as soft as the rampage. Heck, it even has a shim to limit the forward flex you get, imo defeats the purpose.... i chuck that out long ago. 

BTW, Evan comped in the langes, I got the impression he would have changed over in heartbeat if the kryptons were around.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 11, 2008)

I [Hart] Skiing said:


> They are the same shells. The liner is where they differ.
> 
> Don't let the soft flex detour you. The boot is fairly soft in a forward flex, but the lateral rigidity is where Kryptons excel.



I'd rather err on the side of stiffness than the opposite.  It would be one thing if I spent 75% plus of my day in bumps these days like I once did, but I don't.  I'm more an all mountain skier these days and like a certain degree of stiffness to rail turns on groomers when I'm skiing them.

I had the Rampage cranked to the 110 limit and I was bending them over way more than I'm comfortable with. I'm a pretty stout guy though at 5'-8" and 205lbs.  Okay I'm a bit fat :lol:  My understanding is that the Krypton's lightest setting is 110 and the max is 140?  I think that range fits me much better than the Rampage's 80-110


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## Trekchick (Jul 11, 2008)

If you check out the link to REI I had in an earlier post, they had the Pro in stock but I'm not sure what sizes they had in stock.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 14, 2008)

finger is itchy on a pair for $412 from backcountryoutlet.com

best deal I've seen so far, most are selling in the $450 -$500 range.  I'd like to land the $290 Jack got, but not looking all that promising....


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## Philpug (Jul 14, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> finger is itchy on a pair for $412 from backcountryoutlet.com
> 
> best deal I've seen so far, most are selling in the $450 -$500 range.  I'd like to land the $290 Jack got, but not looking all that promising....



If they aren't that much more local, I would explore those options. This way you can go back and get fitting done.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 14, 2008)

I [Hart] Skiing said:


> If they aren't that much more local, I would explore those options. This way you can go back and get fitting done.



I would normally consider this, but nothing local has my size

kind of a gamble, but the Rampages I tried on fit like slippers...so I think it's a fairly safe gamble.  Plus I asked the store how much they would charge me for putting the liners on the heat mold machine and it was only $10 even though I wouldn't have bought the boots there.


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## jack97 (Jul 14, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> best deal I've seen so far, most are selling in the $450 -$500 range.  I'd like to land the $290 Jack got, but not looking all that promising....



Hey Bro

Couple of caveats..... but first I have lay out the personnel stuff, i'm 5',7", 145-150. I stay in the bumps all day. (And I like long walks on the beach with the special someone  )

IMO, couple of factors worked to my favor on that deal; it was truly the end of the season and most dealers wanted to liquidate their inventory. Second, Rampages suffer from the "stiff is better" syndrome; meaning all the studs out there want the stiffest boots and skis. Or if your skiing something soft then you're not a good skier. 

For someone who wants to ski all mtn, best thing about the pros is that it can change from a stiff boot to a soft boot. Might be best to wait some more. Given the ego factor out there the Rampage will still be out there. BTW, the moros are the stiffer version of a park boot, I think Dalbello was pushing that aggressively last year and this coming season, well at least the local ski shop was saying they will stock plenty of them. 

Me, given my wieght/heigth and terrain pref, Rampages seems like the right choice.


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## deadheadskier (Jul 15, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> finger is itchy on a pair for $412 from backcountryoutlet.com
> 
> best deal I've seen so far, most are selling in the $450 -$500 range.  I'd like to land the $290 Jack got, but not looking all that promising....



Trigger PULLED!!!!


Just got a coupon for 50% off via email for backcountryoutlet.com.  Brought the price down to $375 with free shipping

psyched!!


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