# Switzerland: The Land of Cool Ski Lifts



## thetrailboss (Mar 21, 2017)

Just got back from 10 days in Switzerland.  Boy, their ski areas put ours to shame when it comes to lift infrastructure.  Probably because a fair number of these areas are publicly owned and ski lifts are seen as a form of public transport.  

First, let's look at Zermatt.  Need to get a lot of people uphill?  Why not a railway?  The Gornergrat Railway:












Almost every lift was a detachable...most were six packs WITH bubbles:






High Speed Quad Transfer Lift WITH angle station and one terminal inside an underground bunker to allow the ski trail to pass overhead:






A Chondola:






One of at least FIVE trams....and a relatively new one as well:






ANOTHER one:






Probably my favorite one.....move over Killington Gondola...a FIVE stage Gondola with FOUR angle stations/load unload areas.  Ski to the wrong side?  Ride the escalators DOWN and then UP to get over to the right side!  This is the Matterhorn Express.  Built in 2002.  






The FIRST station:






Namesake:






Schwarzsee, or Station Number Three:






Going DOWN to Station Four and then turning to Trockener Steg, the end:






Trockener Steg.  The Klein Matterhorn Tram runs to the top.  The crane is for the construction of a "3S Gondola" or similar to Squaw Valley's Funitel that will go to the top.  There is also at least one T-Bar, one magic carpet, and one six-pack with a bubble for good measure.  The Matterhorn Express Gondola ends here as does another Tram and just a "run of the mill" older HSQ.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 21, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Probably because a fair number of these areas are publicly owned and ski lifts are seen as a form of public transport.


Bingo.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 21, 2017)

A six pack bubble running over the glacier and "snow waves" from the winds:











Self-service T-Bar for "Summer Skiing" on the glacier.  And if that glacier moves it is easier to fix a T-Bar than a full chairlift.  






Trockener Steg:






And last year Zermatt decided to replace the old T-Bar on the Hirli Side of the resort...at the foot of the Matterhorn.  The replacement?  A new six-pack bubble with deluxe heated seats.  

In this first two pics do any of you see the old-school Tram for access to the other side of the valley?


























Unreal.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 21, 2017)

Next stop will be Mount Rigi and its famous Trams and mountain railways.  Goldau, at its base, is where Garaventa is based (they built the Snowbird Tram).


----------



## Jully (Mar 21, 2017)

Pretty ridiculous.


----------



## kingslug (Mar 21, 2017)

Zermatt is pretty awesome. Had a very good 7 powder days there. And one giant avalanche that almost killed 5 of the group.


----------



## Sven Leonson (Mar 21, 2017)

I always thought it would be hard to convince my wife that we should ski Switzerland.  Once I show her the multiple bubble lifts, it'll be a piece of cake (or should I say torte?!)!!


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 21, 2017)

kingslug said:


> Zermatt is pretty awesome. Had a very good 7 powder days there. And one giant avalanche that almost killed 5 of the group.



Sounds about right.


----------



## eatskisleep (Mar 21, 2017)

Very cool, thanks for sharing!


----------



## mriceyman (Mar 21, 2017)

Insanity


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## freeski (Mar 21, 2017)

Nice pictures, very interesting...


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 21, 2017)

awesome pictures and great post, thanks.

i have never quite understood skiing in europe. how does it work with respect to things like "resorts" (as it seems more like many interconnected lift systems which take you to various towns sometimes in different countries, and not what we think of as a resort in north american skiing), and things like in bounds v out of bounds/on piste v off piste (with respect to access and avalanche control, and marking dangerous cliffs and such). 

it seems like a giant clusterfuck and that skiing powder or steeps comes with a very high risk of avalanche. but ive never been and dont really know anything


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 21, 2017)

That's some crazy stuff.  The Self-service T-Bar is the most intriguing, never heard of such a thing.


----------



## jimk (Mar 21, 2017)

That old school tram looks a little like the original at Cannon.  You got nice visibility!  So, Utah is not enough for you?! ;-)


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 21, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> That's some crazy stuff.  The Self-service T-Bar is the most intriguing, never heard of such a thing.



I think Stratton has or had one for SMS. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## goldsbar (Mar 21, 2017)

Curious to hear an answer to Kusty's question.  I always hear stories about skiing in the Alps being on-piste only unless you have a guide.  Horror stories about anything off a groomed run can avalanche.  Terrain looks awesome, but I can't see going just for some groomers - though really nice looking groomers!


----------



## Bumpsis (Mar 21, 2017)

The lift infrastructure looks great. What's the cost of lift passes over there. Since resorts are linked, how does that work?


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 21, 2017)

goldsbar said:


> Curious to hear an answer to Kusty's question.  I always hear stories about skiing in the Alps being on-piste only unless you have a guide.  Horror stories about anything off a groomed run can avalanche.  Terrain looks awesome, but I can't see going just for some groomers - though really nice looking groomers!



The snow was too low to safely go off the groomers, but they did have signs that said one should stay on trail because of cravasses and other terrain hazards. And I did hear avi work going on in the morning. That said the area was HUGE and I didn't see very many ski patrollers. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 21, 2017)

Bumpsis said:


> The lift infrastructure looks great. What's the cost of lift passes over there. Since resorts are linked, how does that work?


Generally cheaper than here.  Often quite a bit cheaper.  You pay one price and it gets sorted out behind the scenes.  Switzerland is expensive right now, though, thanks to a very strong Franc.  Zermatt, for example, is running about 50% more than Kitzbuhel for a one day ticket.


----------



## cdskier (Mar 21, 2017)

That lift infrastructure looks quite impressive!


----------



## kingslug (Mar 22, 2017)

We found good powder right next to the groomers and in the woods. We stayed away from anything that even looked like avi danger. I got a level one avi certificate several years ago so I have an idea what to avoid. The fun began when we split into 2 groups and hired 2 guides to hit the good stuff. Our group had no problem, the other group almost got nailed. The guide heard the avi and they all made a run for it to higher ground. When they turned around the blast hit them a little. We where waiting for them in one of the lodges. They came in all freaked out, the guide especially. We could see the avi from the window, dogs helis all converging on it..insane scene, it was a big one.


----------



## Vaughn (Mar 22, 2017)

I only skied in Switzerland once, at Verbier. A lot of the lifts had magic carpets to get you onto the chairs. I also noticed more than a few boards took their boards complete off.


----------



## Glenn (Mar 22, 2017)

That's wild. Impressive number of lifts. Thanks for sharing. 

Stratton has a Poma near the bump run. I think they run it on practice and race days. I rode it years ago. It's not open to the general skiing public anymore.


----------



## Hawk (Mar 22, 2017)

Trailboss, looks like a very nice trip.  That is and will be on the list for me.  We just got back from St Anton Austria.  It was very similar to Switzerland with the government building all the lifts for the areas.  St Anton had 87 lifts across 3 valleys and 12 little towns.  Lift tickets were $42 euro a day so basically $45 and $5 more for insurance.  These countries understand that the ski industry is key for the economy and build a great lift infrastructure to connect all the towns.  The towns and the government share the profits.  Like the Swiss the engineering is crazy.  Most of the lifts in Austria are Doppelmayr/Garaventa group with Siemens controls.  The galzigbahn lift with its elevator like connection to the main cable and the flexenbahn with a mountaintop station that connects 3 different gondolas stand out for me.

As for the off piste, for the most part you can go anywhere with in reason.  They do not mark things very well so good common sense is needed.  But we did ski with a guide for 2 days and he really showed us where to go.  Most importantly he showed us where not to go.  Really it is not all that bad and I assure you, you would venture out and ski most anything unless there are glaciers.  That is totally different.  You need a guide.


----------



## from_the_NEK (Mar 22, 2017)

The Alps look like lift porn heaven  Great photos!

Looks like you had pretty decent weather too.


----------



## Scruffy (Mar 22, 2017)

KustyTheKlown said:


> awesome pictures and great post, thanks.
> 
> i have never quite understood skiing in europe. how does it work with respect to things like "resorts" (as it seems more like many interconnected lift systems which take you to various towns sometimes in different countries, and not what we think of as a resort in north american skiing), and things like in bounds v out of bounds/on piste v off piste (with respect to access and avalanche control, and marking dangerous cliffs and such).
> 
> it seems like a giant clusterfuck and that skiing powder or steeps comes with a very high risk of avalanche. but ive never been and dont really know anything



Your observations are not too far off with respect to lifts that serve areas and not resorts. The Alps are vast and you can ski anywhere you want, even to another country. That's been customary since the begining of snow travel in the Alps. 

You are on your own and if you have the skills can pretty much go anywhere; however, you can not expect to be rescued, and if you are it will cost you-better get insurance for that. 

The best way for anyone not intimately familiar with skiing an area, and without the ski mountaineering skills needed to go seriously off
piste, is to hire a certified guide.  

Now, can you go a little off-piste, in site of piste, yes, but depends on if you're on a glacier or not. I was in Chamonix in Jan. and our guide pointed to a spot just a little off piste and stated that one of his buddies was still buried in a crevasse just over there. Well, where he was pointing to looked like any open ungroomed bowl area in any of our more western terrain, but he knew that a glacier runs under that seemingly docile looking slope, and he knew where the hidden crevasses where. 

We had great powder runs from the top of Grand Monte because we had a guide and he not only knew where the stashes were, but how to keep us safe.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 22, 2017)

For those that wish to see the impressive trail map....with Cervinia as well:

http://www.zermatt.ch/en/Lifts-pistes/Panoramakarten-Facts/Piste-map-Winter-panorama


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 22, 2017)

How much does a certified guide cost for the day?


----------



## rtjcbrown (Mar 22, 2017)

Which ski resort in the US do you think offers the greatest variety of types of ski lifts? I don't know the answer, but my first guess would be Squaw Valley, since that was an obsession for Cushing when he owned it.


----------



## jimk (Mar 22, 2017)

I've ridden aerial lifts in Switzerland, Germany, and Austria, all uniformly high quality.  Last time I skied in Austria was 2003 and they already had RFID lift tickets then.  At that time they still had a sprinkling of surface lifts among the high-tech rides, but usually for a good reason such as short connections over a saddle or other odd terrain feature, or wind avoidance in exposed areas, or on a glacier.  We had guides for several days during that Austrian trip, but they never took us off-piste.  I occasionally dipped into the "off-piste" within 100 yrds of groomers, but the guides didn't go with me even though they skied much better than me.  I think it must be a liability thing.  Europe obviously produces some fantastic skiers/boarders, but IMHO the average casual skier has far less ambitions than US recreational skiers.  They treat a ski vacation like we treat a beach vacation.  A little bit of exercise, but mostly laying around, eating, and partying.  Sorry if I sound like an ugly American.


----------



## jimk (Mar 22, 2017)

rtjcbrown said:


> Which ski resort in the US do you think offers the greatest variety of types of ski lifts? I don't know the answer, but my first guess would be Squaw Valley, since that was an obsession for Cushing when he owned it.


Not US, but Mont Sainte Anne has bubble chairs, gondi, t-bars, and regular chairs.  Hmmm, just got back from Whistler.  They have all that there too, and the peak to peak gondi/tram.

Actually, you ought to start a separate thread.  Interesting topic.  Squaw is a contender.  I've been to about 80 or 90 places in NA and would have to think about this...


----------



## yeggous (Mar 22, 2017)

A guide is roughly $350 for the day at the current exchange rate which is highly favorable to the USD.

I was just in the Alps last week too. The lift infrastructure is absolutely amazing. Everything is modern and self service surface lifts are also extensive. A visit will completely reshape your expectations for the size and quality of a trail and lift system.

I have some GoPro footage I can post eventually when I have time to go through it all.

Lift tickets are much cheaper there, on the order of half the price of the western USA -- about $55/day. A 7-day pass is about $300 in Chamonix for example.




Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## kingslug (Mar 22, 2017)

One of the coolest things you can do is go to the top, which can be 7000 plus vertical in places, then ski back into town. It can take several hours and is much more of an adventure than most places you can ski here for sure. We tried to get over to Italy but 80 mph winds blocked that, so we skied back down, through the streets and back onto the train. Amazing. Skiing around 150 year old houses half buried into the mountain is very cool.


----------



## djd66 (Mar 22, 2017)

I just spent 10 days in Verbier Switzerland - the place was awesome.  It blew me away how many lifts there were and just the shear size of the place!  Some of the highlights - my 12yo daughter and I went paragliding from the top of the mtn all the way to the valley floor (skis on of course) The other thing we did was called sledging.  For $10 - they give you a sled at the top of the mountain and you sled down a 10K long trail  Skiers and sledders shared the trail for part of the way. Out of 4 people sledding - 2 of us got hurt (minor) What blew me away - we never signed anything for either of these activities.  

We loved all the great lunch spots scattered through the mountain.  Tons of people enjoying a bottle of wine and smoking ciggarettes everywhere.  I will definitely be back


----------



## jimk (Mar 22, 2017)

You guys making the trips to Europe are holding out on us with the eye candy


----------



## Jcb890 (Mar 22, 2017)

This thread just makes me jealous... damn guys, awesome trips and photos.


----------



## yeggous (Mar 22, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> This thread just makes me jealous... damn guys, awesome trips and photos.



I'm always looking for people to put together a group trip. You get better rates, and more people to ski with. My wife always wants to quit early so I welcome other people to go out with.

Are others interested in organizing a group trip to Europe next year? Prices continue to look favorable for such a trip.


----------



## Jcb890 (Mar 22, 2017)

yeggous said:


> I'm always looking for people to put together a group trip. You get better rates, and more people to ski with. My wife always wants to quit early so I welcome other people to go out with.
> 
> Are others interested in organizing a group trip to Europe next year? Prices continue to look favorable for such a trip.


I would be very interested in hearing details.  Too early to commit right now, but I'd love to at least look at it.
Are there places in Europe which are for 2-plankers only?


----------



## yeggous (Mar 22, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> I would be very interested in hearing details.  Too early to commit right now, but I'd love to at least look at it.
> Are there places in Europe which are for 2-plankers only?



I have no idea about banning snowboarders, but the balance of people on the slopes is heavily tipped in the favor of skiers. We had a real pain with our snowboarding buddy. Surface lifts, traverses, and run-outs are brutal with him -- and if you want to go off-piste or between towns all three are a reality.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 22, 2017)

rtjcbrown said:


> Which ski resort in the US do you think offers the greatest variety of types of ski lifts? I don't know the answer, but my first guess would be Squaw Valley, since that was an obsession for Cushing when he owned it.



Yep.  Other candidates would be Mount Snow of yesteryear and Boyne which has a reputation of being the testing grounds for new lifts.


----------



## cdskier (Mar 22, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> A Chondola:



What's the benefit of a Chondola? I've seen the word mentioned, but never actually realized what it was until now.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 22, 2017)

cdskier said:


> What's the benefit of a Chondola? I've seen the word mentioned, but never actually realized what it was until now.



Sunday River has one.  They say that some folks prefer the gondola for summer use and in bad weather.  And the North Peak Lodge is now in use year round and non-skiers just don't do chairs.


----------



## Jully (Mar 22, 2017)

cdskier said:


> What's the benefit of a Chondola? I've seen the word mentioned, but never actually realized what it was until now.



Skier preference? Also versatility in windy situations. I know SR will remove gondola cabins on days with high wind to enable the lift to still operate.

Other than those I am at a loss.


----------



## benski (Mar 22, 2017)

cdskier said:


> What's the benefit of a Chondola? I've seen the word mentioned, but never actually realized what it was until now.



People who prefer to keep there skis on can ride the chairs meanwhile people who prefer gondolas can ride the cabins vs. everyone having to ride either chairs or gondola cabins.


----------



## Domeskier (Mar 22, 2017)

Are there separate lines for people who want to use the gondola cabins?  Or do you just pop your skis off if a gondola cabin happens to be coming around the bullwheel?


----------



## yeggous (Mar 22, 2017)

As far as the chondola as Verbier goes, it is a practical choice. That lift runs uphill and then back down. Using the gondola portion allows them to up and download sections of the mountain after "last chair".


----------



## jimk (Mar 22, 2017)

I've ridden the one at SR, but never have paid too much attention to chondolas either.  However, I used one at Beaver Creek recently to great effect.  I was there on Feb 28 for a one foot powder day.  No one was skiing under the chondola and that line was skiing great.




It snowed all day and that lift was empty. Instinctively I kept going back to the gondola cabins to get out of the elements and did about 6 straight runs off it.  Next day still good, but no need to wait for a gondi cabin:





edit:  There are separate lines for gondi and chairs. Centennial Chondola at BC has more than 2000' vert, and is only six-pack chair/10pass gondi combo in the world.  Details here on the great lift blog website:
https://liftblog.com/2015/07/17/lift-profile-centennial-chondola-at-beaver-creek/


----------



## Jully (Mar 22, 2017)

Domeskier said:


> Are there separate lines for people who want to use the gondola cabins?  Or do you just pop your skis off if a gondola cabin happens to be coming around the bullwheel?



Yeah. At least at SR there are separate lines. Separate unloading sections up top too obviously, meaning that you do not have people walking off of gondola cabins onto the chair offload ramp.


----------



## yeggous (Mar 22, 2017)

The Verbier chondola also allows pedestrians to get the summit. It sits above double-barreled set of gondolas an unloads at the bottom of two consecutive trams to the summit.


----------



## cdskier (Mar 22, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Sunday River has one.  They say that some folks prefer the gondola for summer use and in bad weather.  And the North Peak Lodge is now in use year round and non-skiers just don't do chairs.



I knew SR had a "Chondola" but never really put two and two together. I always just sort of thought that was the name they gave their Gondola whenever I saw it mentioned. :smile:


----------



## Domeskier (Mar 22, 2017)

Jully said:


> Yeah. At least at SR there are separate lines. Separate unloading sections up top too obviously, meaning that you do not have people walking off of gondola cabins onto the chair offload ramp.



Makes sense.  What surprises me is that there aren't whole threads here devoted to complaining about chondola line abuse!


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 22, 2017)

benski said:


> *People who prefer to keep there skis on can ride the chairs meanwhile people who prefer gondolas can ride the cabins* vs. everyone having to ride either chairs or gondola cabins.



And thus the ultimate First-World Problem was resolved.


----------



## Jcb890 (Mar 22, 2017)

yeggous said:


> I have no idea about banning snowboarders, but the balance of people on the slopes is heavily tipped in the favor of skiers. We had a real pain with our snowboarding buddy. Surface lifts, traverses, and run-outs are brutal with him -- and if you want to go off-piste or between towns all three are a reality.


Interesting.  I figured the majority of crowds would be skiers anyways though.  Do you think the issues had to do with your friends' abilities as a rider or just the terrain itself?  I'll readily admit I don't even bother with surface lifts.  Traversing sucks, but sometimes is a necessary evil.  Run-outs can be done if you can plan ahead for them... most of the time at least.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 22, 2017)

Stop Number Two:  Mount Rigi off of Lake Lucerne

On the north is the village of Goldau.  Sound familiar?  It is where Garaventa is located and where many a tram have been born, including Snowbird's tram.  Mount Rigi epotomizes the Swiss attitude of "why not?"  It overlooks Lake Lucerne, has spectacular cliffs and views, and has been a point of interest for hundreds of years.  There weren't really any roads up there.  Instead, they have built several railways and trams to get you up there.  Once you are up there you can go to a new world class spa (incredible), hike, relax, ski off of several T-Bars (or by taking the train), and enjoy the scenery.  

The view from Luzern:






Pretty easy to know where to go once you get off the ferry:






The Tram from Weggis...built by Garaventa in Goldau:











Just amazing scenery:
















CONCRETE support towers:











Coming into the summit station.  One ski hill is on the far right.  






Trams are not for you?  Take the mountain railway.  Amazing new train station that is incorporated into the Mineralbad & Spa Rigi Kaltbad.  











Taking a nice leisurely stroll:


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 22, 2017)

Here is a view of the top portion of Rigi.  One railway runs along the right hand side, along the ridge, and to the top.  Another one is below us.....just to the left of center through the trees.  You can see the ski trail going around it and the chalets.  The T-Bar, in a triangle shape, is in the center portion of the photo:






Said train.  Ski trails on either side:






Former rail line now a XC ski trail, hiking trail, and trail for horse-drawn sleighs:






Someone getting fresh tracks:






Old railroad bridge:






Directing you to trails, trams, and railways:






See the ski trail?






Shot of the spa:











One of the ski hills and T-Bars:






Weggis Tram:







Next stop will be Zurich's equivalent of Wachusett: Flumserberg.  You won't believe the lifts that "local's hill" has.


----------



## Jcb890 (Mar 22, 2017)

So cool!  Thank you for sharing!


----------



## rocks860 (Mar 22, 2017)

Zermatt is amazing. I skied there back in 2003 I think when I was studying abroad. Spent a week there and stayed in a hostel. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jimk (Mar 22, 2017)

Where's the like button?


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 22, 2017)

Is it easy to get lost skiing in Europe?  Some of those areas are so massive I dont even know how you'd decide where to go.  And when you ski from one town to two towns over, I guess there are taxis to take you back to your base hotel?


----------



## rocks860 (Mar 22, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Is it easy to get lost skiing in Europe?  Some of those areas are so massive I dont even know how you'd decide where to go.  And when you ski from one town to two towns over, I guess there are taxis to take you back to your base hotel?



Forget town to town, at zermatt you can ski from Switzerland to Italy 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jimk (Mar 23, 2017)

In the US we've traditionally thought of mountains as these remote barriers of wilderness slowing pioneers down on the march to manifest destiny.  Not that they don't have some pristine areas in the Alps, but to a much greater extent they have populated their mountains and developed stuff in, around and atop all kinds of mountainous terrain.  Mountains are so deeply embedded in the culture over millennia that they are like backyard playgrounds.  Yet, Mont Blanc near Chamonix is nearly 16,000 feet high and everywhere the Alps are much more jagged and forbidding-looking than any mountains we have in the US.  There are no-name ski areas with 3000 feet of vertical around every bend in the road.  My favorite word for the Alps:  VERTICALITY.

This shot by thetrailboss does a nice job of capturing the mountains, culture, and technology of the Alps:


----------



## Breakout12 (Mar 23, 2017)

Scruffy said:


> I was in Chamonix in Jan. and our guide pointed to a spot just a little off piste and stated that one of his buddies was still buried in a crevasse just over there. Well, where he was pointing to looked like any open ungroomed bowl area in any of our more western terrain, but he knew that a glacier runs under that seemingly docile looking slope, and he knew where the hidden crevasses where.



Reminded me of this, at 6:35

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUvvjYP5aZY


----------



## Hawk (Mar 23, 2017)

rocks860 said:


> Forget town to town, at zermatt you can ski from Switzerland to Italy



At Cham you can ski from France into Italy or From France into Switzerland.

Again nice Pictures and stories Trailboss.  This is what I wish this forum had more of.  It totally motivates me to go to other places.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 23, 2017)

Hawk said:


> At Cham you can ski from France into Italy or From France into Switzerland.
> 
> Again nice Pictures and stories Trailboss.  This is what I wish this forum had more of.  It totally motivates me to go to other places.



Thanks Hawk!  Another installment coming soon.  Perhaps one more after that!


----------



## fbrissette (Mar 23, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Is it easy to get lost skiing in Europe?  Some of those areas are so massive I dont even know how you'd decide where to go.  And when you ski from one town to two towns over, I guess there are taxis to take you back to your base hotel?



A typical taxi ride from one valley to the other (sometimes in different countries) would be 1h30 long and cost upward of 200 euros.  You do this because you fucked up and not because you planned it.  Those are big ass mountains, and even though the villages might only be 20km apart in a straight line, they may be 100 km apart using twisted roads that are gonna make you sick.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 23, 2017)

fbrissette said:


> *A typical taxi ride from one valley to the other (sometimes in different countries) would be 1h30 long and cost upward of 200 euros. * You do this because you fucked up and not because you planned it.  Those are big ass mountains, and even though the villages might only be 20km apart in a straight line, they may be 100 km apart using twisted roads that are gonna make you sick.



This seems a lot less romantic than it did 10 minutes ago.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 23, 2017)

For instance, here's an interesting multi-nation, numerous town, trailmap that looks both awesome as well as intimidating.


http://live.skiplan.com/moduleweb/2.0/live.php?station=champery&resort=pds



thetrailboss said:


> * Another installment coming soon. * Perhaps one more after that!



Keep em' coming!  Love looking at ski trip pics.


----------



## cdskier (Mar 23, 2017)

So how does it work with passports and things like that when you can ski from one country to another?

This is all very fascinating and I agree, keep the pics and stories coming!


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 23, 2017)

cdskier said:


> So how does it work with passports and things like that when you can ski from one country to another?
> 
> This is all very fascinating and I agree, keep the pics and stories coming!



Can't tell you as the connection to Cervinia was closed.


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 23, 2017)

I've only been lucky enough to make it to Europe to ski once, which was in the Jungfrau region. Unfortunately I was 9 years old and don't remember much from it other than the revolving restaurant on top of the Schilthorn and what must have been the biggest scare of my father's life as a parent.   We went over because the High School my mother taught at had a class trip.  Chaperones could bring their families, so we went.   They did have numerous Trams, Gondolas and ski trains back then, but the vast majority of lifts were T-Bars.  This was always a challenge as my father was 6' and I probably 4' at the time, so it was difficult to balance the bar behind us.  

The whole area is massive beyond comprehension like others have described other European areas here.

https://cdn.snowplaza.nl/content/WinterPanos/2500/12161.jpg

If you look over on the Schilthorn side to the right, the Riggli lift was an extremely steep T-Bar when we there.  My dad and I decided to ski the blue slope down while my mother relaxed at the restaurant at Birg.  We tried to go up the T-Bar two times and fell off each time, having to ski down and start over.  The third time we made it to what appeared to be only a few hundred feet from the top.  I was so frustrated I told my dad we should walk.  We make it about 100 feet and I completely passed out cold from the altitude and exertion.   Luckily, some Frenchmen came skiing by, saw my father panicked over me and offered some smelling salts to wake me.  He stayed with us until I was ready ski, went down to the bottom with us and helped me ride the T-Bar to the top.  I can only imagine what I would feel like to be on the side of some mountain in a foreign land with my young son passed out. 

I didn't know this until just now looking up the Schilthorn, but it is home to the largest amateur ski race in the world called the Inferno.  It first started in 1928. 1850 racers on a course that is 9.26 miles long covering 6463 vertical feet.  

Of course the Schilthorn is most famous for the scene from James Bond "On Her Majesty's Secret Service."


----------



## Smellytele (Mar 23, 2017)

cdskier said:


> So how does it work with passports and things like that when you can ski from one country to another?


They have open boarders or did when I went in the late 90's - no need for passports.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 23, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> They have open boarders or did when I went in the late 90's - no need for passports.



Open boarders?  So does MRG and Deer Valley have closed boarders?  

:wink:

[Borders]


----------



## fbrissette (Mar 23, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> They have open boarders or did when I went in the late 90's - no need for passports.



Correct.  The entire euro zone (and more specifically the Shengen economic area) is Passport free.  Switzerland (part of Shengen but not EU) still has border crossings and patrols where you could be stopped but you typically just go by in your car at slow speed.


----------



## fbrissette (Mar 23, 2017)

goldsbar said:


> Curious to hear an answer to Kusty's question.  I always hear stories about skiing in the Alps being on-piste only unless you have a guide.  Horror stories about anything off a groomed run can avalanche.  Terrain looks awesome, but I can't see going just for some groomers - though really nice looking groomers!



There is not much difference with the US.  The best know ski areas are much larger and typically interconnect several valleys and Villages.  You have to be careful to end up in the wrong place at the end of the day.

Most of the resorts have in-bound areas very well-marked and you won't end up out-of-bound inadvertently.  So it is certainly not true that you're in danger if you're not on groomers. In a big bowl they will groom one line like they do out west. All in-bound terrain is controlled for avalanche.  You could still have your freak avalanche (like in Tignes 2 weeks ago) but the same is true out West.

Having said that, the major resorts are high up in the Alps and most of the out of bound is heavily glaciated.  Managing avalanches is one thing, travelling on glaciers requires a whole set of skills that cannot be acquired through a week-end of training (like your Avy level 1 training).  As such you should not recommend going off-piste in the Alps without a guide and evac insurance (which is quite cheap).  Crossing a rope in a resort, if only to ski a powder line 20 feet out-of-bound can cost you your life. Hidden crevasses are a lot sneakier than avalanches.

There are also a few resorts where guiding is mandatory.  La Graves is the best example.  It is lift serviced but everything is considered out-of-bound and mostly extreme.  Chutes, long steep couloirs, mostly 40 degrees plus. Check this site for a description of some of the runs. Scary place.  
http://www.skierslodge.com/the-skiing-2/legendary-routes/

Another example is anything off of the Aiguille du Midi cable car in Chamonix.  

But otherwise most of the big resorts are set up exactly like in North-America.  Just bigger.  With much better food.

EDIT: with respect to LaGraves, awesome TGR video of the Y couloir.  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7swEJNPd2g


----------



## moresnow (Mar 23, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> I didn't know this until just now looking up the Schilthorn, but it is home to the largest amateur ski race in the world called the Inferno.  It first started in 1928. 1850 racers on a course that is 9.26 miles long covering 6463 vertical feet.



We had our own Inferno.

http://newenglandskimuseum.org/remembering-toni-matt-and-the-1939-inferno/


----------



## Hawk (Mar 24, 2017)

fbrissette said:


> A typical taxi ride from one valley to the other (sometimes in different countries) would be 1h30 long and cost upward of 200 euros.  You do this because you fucked up and not because you planned it.  Those are big ass mountains, and even though the villages might only be 20km apart in a straight line, they may be 100 km apart using twisted roads that are gonna make you sick.



This is certainly not typical and things differ greatly with every ski area.  When I went to Cham we skied from France into Switzerland over a ridge and down into the next valley.  From there we had drinks and hopped on a train an was back in Cham in 15 minutes at a cost of like $8 Euro.  Also in St Anton this past year we skied with a guide down the back side of the Rendl and caught a bus back to town for $5 euro.  The guide also told us of other tours that you can take a taxi back at a cost of no more than $20 Euro.  So it is different everywhere.  It is my opinion from my 3 times to Europe that if you are a good skier and have good common sense and a decent sense of direction it is not a big deal to venture around as you learn the area.  Obviously understanding the weather and conditions is key but that is just experience.


----------



## fbrissette (Mar 24, 2017)

Hawk said:


> This is certainly not typical and things differ greatly with every ski area.  When I went to Cham we skied from France into Switzerland over a ridge and down into the next valley.  From there we had drinks and hopped on a train an was back in Cham in 15 minutes at a cost of like $8 Euro.  Also in St Anton this past year we skied with a guide down the back side of the Rendl and caught a bus back to town for $5 euro.  The guide also told us of other tours that you can take a taxi back at a cost of no more than $20 Euro.  So it is different everywhere.  It is my opinion from my 3 times to Europe that if you are a good skier and have good common sense and a decent sense of direction it is not a big deal to venture around as you learn the area.  Obviously understanding the weather and conditions is key but that is just experience.



My point was aimed at the very large interconnected resorts (e.g. 3 vallées, Espace-Killy in France, 4 valleys in Switzerland).   If your hotel is in Meribel and you end-up in Les Menuires (which is not that hard to do especially in bad weather), you're looking at quite the taxi ride. Otherwise, there are lots of sidecountry options in Europe with quick bus rides to your home base, notably in Chamonix.   But Cham is not a large interconnected station like the other, and those sidecountry options are all (in my experience) out of bound.

You are correct, that if you're good with a map it's not complicated but the real terrain is always more complex than it appears on the ski map.  When I ski in Europe, my rule is to go explore far in the morning and get back no later than mid afternoon to the local pod.


----------



## Hawk (Mar 24, 2017)

When you said typical I took it as that.  I think Typical is not the correct word.  It's more like occasionally.  St Anton has 87 lifts and is over 27 miles end to end and is as big as the areas that you listed.  At any given point when we skied there this year, if we went way out of bounds, the maximum ride back by taxi would be 40 minutes.  Also the options at Cham I spoke about included skinning and hiking so I would not consider them side country.  We had to climb over 1500 ft to get over the ridges.  Just sayin.  I don't think telling people that if you go out of bounds its 1.5 hours back is correct in most cases.


----------



## Jully (Mar 24, 2017)

Hawk said:


> When you said typical I took it as that.  I think Typical is not the correct word.  It's more like occasionally.  St Anton has 87 lifts and is over 27 miles end to end and is as big as the areas that you listed.  At any given point when we skied there this year, if we went way out of bounds, the maximum ride back by taxi would be 40 minutes.  Also the options at Cham I spoke about included skinning and hiking so I would not consider them side country.  We had to climb over 1500 ft to get over the ridges.  Just sayin.  I don't think telling people that if you go out of bounds its 1.5 hours back is correct in most cases.



I would say it is good warning though. Sounds like telling people it is 15 minutes back isn't good practice either. 15 minutes to 1.5 hours is a pretty big range of possibilities. I would definitely air on the side of caution if it were me.


----------



## fbrissette (Mar 24, 2017)

Hawk said:


> When you said typical I took it as that.  I think Typical is not the correct word.  It's more like occasionally.  St Anton has 87 lifts and is over 27 miles end to end and is as big as the areas that you listed.  At any given point when we skied there this year, if we went way out of bounds, the maximum ride back by taxi would be 40 minutes.  Also the options at Cham I spoke about included skinning and hiking so I would not consider them side country.  We had to climb over 1500 ft to get over the ridges.  Just sayin.  I don't think telling people that if you go out of bounds its 1.5 hours back is correct in most cases.



Fair enough. My comment about ending in the wrong valley was only directed at in-bound skiers, which is easy enough to do inadvertently if you don't pay attention.  I assume that if you go out of bound, you know what you are doing.

While there is no universal definition of what backcountry/sidecountry is, in my book, sidecountry implies some skinning/bootpacking after using a lift.  Synonymous to slackcountry.   Chamonix is one of my favorite place in the world. The regular skiing is good, but the place really really shines for backcountry/sidecountry skiing.


----------



## Hawk (Mar 24, 2017)

fbrissette said:


> Fair enough. My comment about ending in the wrong valley was only directed at in
> 
> I agree.  There is something about that place.  The mystique is like no other place I have been.  There is a bunch of people here at Sugarbush that go every year.  I have not been in few years but I need to go back.


----------



## lerops (Mar 26, 2017)

In Switzerland, you are very likely to find trains to go back to your original town. I skied in Andermatt for a few days last year. It is a few connected towns with multiple peaks. I ended up all the way at the other end at the end of the day. Took the train back since lifts were closed. Then you have shuttles running in town from the train station to anywhere you want to go. 

It is a different skiing culture though. I saw people wearing their ski boots from Zurich train station to the mountain. Most of the time, you have to change trains, etc. They just grow up doing it. 


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## yeggous (Mar 26, 2017)

It is not completely open borders. I was asked for my passport both times driving through the Mont Blanc tunnel from Italy to France.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 26, 2017)

OK, time to get back to the topic at hand.   Next stop for me was a day skiing at Flumserberg, located south and east of Zurich.  It was less than an hour via train.  For a locals place, this is pretty insane.  

The scale of this map is pretty small...







First, the trip there is pretty cool because you take a train.  It isn't hard t figure out if you're on the right train:






The train station is literally right across the street from Flumserberg's Gondola from Unterterzen:






A pretty long two-stage gondola that climbs out of the valley and up to one of two main base areas.  In a good season one can ski the "Terza Ski Run" from Seeben, 1622 m, down to the midstation at Oberterzen, 665 m.  Unterterzen is at 425m and right on the Walensee (Lake).  One can also start at the eastern end of the valley by ascending from Flums to Tannenheim.

Tannenboden Base and Lift B2, a typical older HSQ that offered some low angle terrain and access to Chruz.  In hindsight I should have just gotten on the old school B1 Gondola and gone right up to Maschgenkamm, which was above the rain/snow line (elevation 2020m).






Lift B1--an older Gondola that only runs cabins that hold folks:






B3, an older HSQ:






Good view from B3 before the clouds rolled in.  That is Maschgenkamm way up there:






Seeben-Stelli Six Pack:











Cool lodge/inn at Seeben:


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 26, 2017)

Maschegenkamm is a major subpeak where three lifts converge--a HSQ, the gondola, and a new bubble six pack that terminates in a concrete bunker under the lodge.  Views up here would be stunning.  Skiing was fun.  

B8, Bubble Six Pack offering some good blue terrain.  Base is Panuol, elevation 1800m:





















Looking toward Grueb.  The mountain in the distance is Sachsmoor.  Note the six pack bubble underneath it.  






The upper deck of the lodge:


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 26, 2017)

More soon.....


----------



## SnowbirdDevotee (Mar 26, 2017)

fbrissette said:


> You are correct, that if you're good with a map it's not complicated but the real terrain is always more complex than it appears on the ski map.  When I ski in Europe, my rule is to go explore far in the morning and get back no later than mid afternoon to the local pod.



This is very good advice.  But the taxi thing isn't really a necessity whatsoever if you use common sense to give yourself enough time to get back.  If you have the cash and recent snowfall has been good, then hiring a guide could be a good idea - but it isn't necessary.  Although I never skied Chamonix I know it is the kind of place you would have to be very careful to stay on the marked routes.  

I was over there 3 times and did it on the cheap.  For St Anton and Verbier, I was able to arrive on the 7:30am flight and after taking a couple hr train ride be skiing by 1pm that day.  Jet lag screw you up a big, but wasn't really a problem with the excitement of very big mtn skiing going on.  I enjoyed the skiing at Zermatt the least because I couldn't find a mogul on the entire damn hill, but had a blast anyway skiing mile and miles every day, and taking all the trams -love those things! Zermatt by far had the coolest town and scenery.  Room and food are expensive, but last year I had a $140/nt room for 2 in Le Chable/Verbier with a 300 yd walk to ski lift.  

The train the OP mentioned in Zermatt was the coolest thing going for all of my trips.  Both St. Anton and Verbier had plenty of marked and safe expert terrain w/ moguls.  They have these orange polls all over the hills marking the slopes.  The "insurance" iyou can buy is a big fog - on what it is good for, does it cover you outside of the orange polls etc.   

I had powder in Verbier, because it snowed.  But no snow, no powder, but good conditions for St Anton and Zermatt.  In the storm at Verbier there were guided skiers paying $$$ to ski the same slopes/stuff I was skiing. 

If you live on the east coast you really should try to figure it out and get there.  The trains aren't that hard to figure out.  Catch them right at the airport - Geneva or Zurich.  Last day ski to 3-4p and catch train back to airport for morning flight.  

I would go last week of Jan.  It might take that long to get good coverage.  Feb is apparently big holiday/school vac time and can be crowded.  I wouldn't trust it in March because the mtns are all lower elevation (except on top) at bottom and could be iffy.  Of course it could be real good then in March, like it is now, but all resorts everywhere starting early March. 

http://www.epicski.com/t/145467/verbier-switzerland-trip-report/0_60
http://www.epicski.com/t/101032/st-anton-this-week/0_60
http://www.epicski.com/t/89239/zermatt-not-my-kind-of-skiing/0_60


----------



## jimk (Mar 26, 2017)

Those white bearskins remind me of the ponchos they used to give you on the old Spruce Peak chair at Stowe on cold days about 40 or 50 years ago.  From that trail map it looks like the skiable vertical of this "locals" place is about 3300 feet!!  

I think I am going to be at Snowbird on Apr 1 and Alta Apr 3.  Let me know if you are there and want to make some turns with us.


----------



## Glenn (Mar 27, 2017)

Really cool. Talk about skiing being ingrained in the culture. 

So are these areas privately owned? How's that setup work?


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 29, 2017)

Back to Flumserberg.  

Their relatively new six-pack bubble ("Leist-Sechser") that takes you to their highest point in and around some cool looking mountains:


























Their version of "Mid-Burke" lodge:






Heading out of the backside and towards the return T-Bar (B9) back to Panuol:






Another self-serve T-bar:






So let me get to a highlight...my first ride on an EIGHT PERSON BUBBLE CHAIR.  Yep, EIGHT people.  Talk about a beast.  Prodkamm-Achter (C2 lift) with loading carpet:
















This doesn't do it justice...
















And the bubble and safety bar automatically opens.  Note the tension springs:






Simply insane.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 29, 2017)

And probably my favorite souvenir.....

View attachment 22285


----------



## benski (Mar 29, 2017)

Only other 8 pack I have ever seen is on Greek peeks website :roll:  I assume there aren't many of them.


----------



## Hawk (Mar 30, 2017)

Did any of the bubble chairs have heated seats?  A couple at St Anton did.  That is totally Shi-Shi.


----------



## Puck it (Mar 30, 2017)

I will over there in Zurich and Interlaken in mid April.  Skiing is going to be pretty much done except for the high altitudes.  Wengen is closing 4/17.  We are staying at the Victoria Jungfrau in Interlaken.  We plan on going up to Piz Gloria and taking the railway up in to the Jungfrau.


----------



## jimk (Mar 30, 2017)

Puck it said:


> I will over there in Zurich and Interlaken in mid April.  Skiing is going to be pretty much done except for the high altitudes.  Wengen is closing 4/17.  We are staying at the Victoria Jungfrau in Interlaken.  We plan on going up to Piz Gloria and taking the railway up in to the Jungfrau.



I visited Interlaken and Grindelwald in May/June 1983 with my wife.  Stunning lakes and mtns region!!!  Rode a chairlift out of Grindelwald and took a hike from top.  Rode ferry to nearby Brienz, a wood carving village.  Neat stuff, but expensive.  I did no skiing that trip.  You gotta try to find some skiing while there just to say you did it
Watch Clint Eastwood's Eiger Sanction before you go to get stoked!


----------



## Puck it (Mar 30, 2017)

jimk said:


> I visited Interlaken and Grindelwald in May/June 1983 with my wife.  Stunning lakes and mtns region!!!  Rode a chairlift out of Grindelwald and took a hike from top.  Rode ferry to nearby Brienz, a wood carving village.  Neat stuff, but expensive.  I did no skiing that trip.  You gotta try to find some skiing while there just to say you did it
> Watch Clint Eastwood's Eiger Sanction before you go to get stoked!


I will be back there.  Recon trip.


----------



## WJenness (Mar 30, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> And probably my favorite souvenir.....
> 
> View attachment 22285



The attachment didn't post right.

Care to try again?

That 8-pack is amazing.

If anyone in the US gets an 8-pack, I hope they're witty enough to call it "The Ocho" or "Dodgeball", or some other reference to that movie.

-w


----------



## Glenn (Mar 30, 2017)

That snowblower near the lift is a beast!


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 30, 2017)

yeggous said:


> It is not completely open borders. I was asked for my passport both times driving through the Mont Blanc tunnel from Italy to France.


Italy and France are supposed to have an open border under the Schengen treaty.  I think what you observed had more to do with illegal immigration and is temporary.  But I could be mistaken.


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 30, 2017)

Trailboss, 

I noticed that there were a lot of non-skiing days during your trip?  Was this by choice?


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 30, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Trailboss,
> 
> I noticed that there were a lot of non-skiing days during your trip?  Was this by choice?



Unfortunately we did not do as much skiing as I might have liked.  We did a trip with skiing instead of a skiing trip because my wife and daughter didn't want to ski.  We also saw family.  I appreciated the days I could ski.  My best would have been four or five days and I managed three.  But I had a lot of fun.  We covered A LOT of ground.  The Glacier Express was fun.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 30, 2017)

Hawk said:


> Did any of the bubble chairs have heated seats?  A couple at St Anton did.  That is totally Shi-Shi.



Yes.  Eight Pack did IIRC.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 30, 2017)

WJenness said:


> The attachment didn't post right.
> 
> Care to try again?
> 
> ...



Let me try it again......


----------



## VTKilarney (Mar 30, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Unfortunately we did not do as much skiing as I might have liked.  We did a trip with skiing instead of a skiing trip because my wife and daughter didn't want to ski.  We also saw family.  I appreciated the days I could ski.  My best would have been four or five days and I managed three.  But I had a lot of fun.  We covered A LOT of ground.  The Glacier Express was fun.



Well, some skiing is better than none.  It's good that you got in those days.


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 30, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Well, some skiing is better than none.  It's good that you got in those days.



Yep.  Looking forward to a return trip.  My wife is very keen on going back for skiing now.


----------



## Jcb890 (Mar 30, 2017)

Awesome stuff, thank you very much for sharing.
How come it looks so empty there?  Is it due to time of year?  Weather?  Location?


----------



## Jully (Mar 30, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Let me try it again......
> 
> View attachment 22287



Pretty awesome!!


----------



## thetrailboss (Mar 30, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> Awesome stuff, thank you very much for sharing.
> How come it looks so empty there?  Is it due to time of year?  Weather?  Location?



As to Flumserberg, the weather SUCKED and it was a Thursday.  It was raining down low and snowing up high. Flumserberg closes this weekend.


----------

