# Ski Cars



## thinnmann (Oct 9, 2008)

I need a new ski car.  Or a used one, more likely.  I figured I would ask here for some suggestions.

My family's current ski ride, for the last too many years, is a Chrysler Town & Country mini van w/Yakima racks.  It has 140K+ miles on it and is on its 3rd transmission.  I put snow tires on this front wheel drive vehicle w/traction control and have never gotten stuck in snow.  (Mud: yea...)  It does countless rides to, from & around the Catskills.  It has to haul my wife and two kids, soon to be aged 11 & 15 and all our stuff, multiple skis, food, clothes, etc. for 2-7 day trips.

I am thinking, with a rack box, I can go a little smaller than the mini-van.  An SUV or crossover with decent gas mileage? - something that won't break the bank (especially since Mr. Dow is busy adding 5 years to my projected retirement date).

So what should I look for?


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## campgottagopee (Oct 9, 2008)

What's our budget???


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## ALLSKIING (Oct 9, 2008)

How about this one.
http://autos.yahoo.com/toyota_highlander_hybrid/


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## Glenn (Oct 9, 2008)

Yeah, the transmissions in those vans are prone to failure. 

Call me crazy, but now is a good time to buy an SUV. People are spooked by gas prices and that's dropped the prices quite a bit. A buddy and myself were drooling over some 06 Grand Cherokee's on E-Bay last week. Nothing like 2 year old loaded $40k Jeep going for under $20k. 

There are a lot of good vehicles out there now that are really reliable. Every brand/model has their quirks, it's just the nature of the beast. 

Make sure you get a good look at the cargo area and seating area if you're thinking of going to a smaller vehicle. One thing about those mini vans is the space: There's a ton of it! 

I'm a big fan of AWD or 4wd. And it's cool to see AWD being offered on more vehicles these days. With a decent set of all seasons, you should be able to get anywhere. 

Our ski vehicle is an 03 Grand Cherokee with the 4.0 I-6. I eek out 20mpg (self calculated) on the way to an from the mountain. As the saying goes, your mileage may vary.


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## thinnmann (Oct 9, 2008)

campgottagopee said:


> What's our budget???





ALLSKIING said:


> How about this one.
> http://autos.yahoo.com/toyota_highlander_hybrid/



NICE...

Any chance staying under $25K ????


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## bvibert (Oct 9, 2008)

Subie wagons seem to be a popular choice amongst outdoor enthusiasts in general, skiers in particular.  I'll definitely be considering one for my next vehicle.  With a box on top you should have no problem fitting your family and gear into one.


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## Vortex (Oct 9, 2008)

I had an explorer, I bought a Montero sport.  I liked the explorer better same gas mileage about 21 to 22 on the ride to ski country..  Explorer better in the snow and higher up and more space.  I bought another explorer a couple of months ago and buried the sport.  Repairs and insurance are lower on the explorere as well.  We have a van, but SUV is better in the snow and gets better mileage.


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## wa-loaf (Oct 9, 2008)

Used Outback or Forrester. Toyota Sienna 4WD for something bigger. VW wagon fwd or 4motion.


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## Johnskiismore (Oct 9, 2008)

Saturn VUE might not be a bad choice either, good on gas(if you behave), and plenty of room when you utilize the roof rack.


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## Greg (Oct 9, 2008)

We're still leaning towards the new Forrester. Good balance of gas mileage, features/price, and AWD capability.


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## hardline (Oct 9, 2008)

i am ever so close to buying a new FJ cruiser. i also like the dodge nitro but dodge is shit.


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## Glenn (Oct 9, 2008)

hardline said:


> i am ever so close to buying a new FJ cruiser. i also like the dodge nitro but dodge is shit.



I like the look of the Nitro vs the Liberty. I haven't read much about the Nitro. I find interweb forums with the enthusiasts hang out always have the low down. 8)


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## campgottagopee (Oct 9, 2008)

For sure a new Subi Forester or Outbk can be bought for under 25k and will give you many years of great reliable service. That's my vote


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## jarrodski (Oct 9, 2008)

laugh at it's shape.. but my subaru baja is a virtual tank second to none in the snow.  it has a spot for the stinky gear in the back and with racks for the skis fits 4 comfortable.  I get about 28 to the gallon absolutly stuffed with people and gear.. 30 or so empty.  I;ve been in situations going to the girl friends barn at midnight to adminsiter meds where snow was coming over the hood while climbing Mountain Road in Granby / Hartland CT.  

I'd get another Sub-y for sure.  

I'm coming off an all wheel drive Chevy Astro with the gas eater package that got me to every single first chair i've ever asked to ... until it's chevy'ness kicked in and was time to abort it.  

since the baja is ugly (think it's been canned by the auto maker) i got it fairly cheap, even though new.  It's essentially a legacy, with the same chasis and interior.  just with the wierd trunk / pick up area. (key for mtn biking, tailgating ...


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## bvibert (Oct 9, 2008)

ishovelsnow said:


> laugh at it's shape.. but my subaru baja is a virtual tank second to none in the snow.  it has a spot for the stinky gear in the back and with racks for the skis fits 4 comfortable.  I get about 28 to the gallon absolutly stuffed with people and gear.. 30 or so empty.  I;ve been in situations going to the girl friends barn at midnight to adminsiter meds where snow was coming over the hood while climbing Mountain Road in Granby / Hartland CT.
> 
> I'd get another Sub-y for sure.
> 
> ...



I actually don't think your baja is that ugly, tough to fit a family of 4 into though.


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## frozencorn (Oct 9, 2008)

Totally the Forester. Buddy of mine has one and we took it to Tahoe in a storm. No need for chains, and that sucker pounded through the snow. Just overall impressive ride in those conditions.


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## campgottagopee (Oct 9, 2008)

ishovelsnow said:


> laugh at it's shape.. but my subaru baja is a virtual tank second to none in the snow.  it has a spot for the stinky gear in the back and with racks for the skis fits 4 comfortable.  I get about 28 to the gallon absolutly stuffed with people and gear.. 30 or so empty.  I;ve been in situations going to the girl friends barn at midnight to adminsiter meds where snow was coming over the hood while climbing Mountain Road in Granby / Hartland CT.
> 
> I'd get another Sub-y for sure.
> 
> ...



Subaru totally missed the boat by dropping the Baja line. We sold a good amount of those here in CNY, and in fact was a big seller in the NE region. I suggested they make that car on the Tribeca platform to give them a bigger market for the car, but obviously they didn't listen

Baja's are cool!!!


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## vcunning (Oct 9, 2008)

hardline said:


> i am ever so close to buying a new FJ cruiser. i also like the dodge nitro but dodge is shit.



I gotta say, my Dodge Magnum (AWD Hemi) is the best ski car I've owned.  With all season tires, it seems to handle better than some other AWD/4WDs I've had (M-Class Mercedes and Jeep Wrangler).

They stopped making the Magnum last year, but the sedan versions are available in AWD as Chargers and 300s.  With the rocket box on top, it easily fits in the garage.  I can also get 20 MPG on ski trips if I'm easy on the accelerator.


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## Puck it (Oct 9, 2008)

hardline said:


> i am ever so close to buying a new FJ cruiser. i also like the dodge nitro but dodge is shit.


 

I have the FJ. Great vehicle.  Go for it.


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## wa-loaf (Oct 9, 2008)

vcunning said:


> I can also get 20 MPG on ski trips if I'm easy on the accelerator.



That doesn't sound all that great for a wagon.


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## vcunning (Oct 9, 2008)

wa-loaf said:


> That doesn't sound all that great for a wagon.



Yeah 20 MPG is a little low, but it's a 340 HP wagon.  It's a bit of a rocket.


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## snowmonster (Oct 9, 2008)

I got a Jeep Patriot 4x4 last year for a shade less than 20K (it could have been cheaper but I just had to have a sunroof, heated seats, etc. I also had no rebates or discounts which I am sure they are handing out now.). I used it through the winter and I was very happy -- plowed through slush, ice and snow. Very good in wintry conditions. It's not a serious off-roader but gets the job done and gives me peace of mind when conditions are sketchy.

Gas consumption is pretty good. I usually get 25 mpg on trips to Sunday River where I'm doing 80 - 85 mph on the pike with a ski rack with 3 pairs of skis attached. If I modify my driving habits and drive nearer the speed limit (as I did during the summer), I hit 27 or 28 mpg. I drive stick so that contributes to fuel economy.

The only downside for a family of four is that it's got limited cargo space in the back. A roofbox will definitely be neeed for longer trips with a lot of gear. But for day trips or overnighters, it's good.


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## RootDKJ (Oct 9, 2008)

I totally vote for the Ford Escape Hybrid.  I think 2WD would be acceptable, but I have 4WD and I can get through some pretty snowy roads with ease.  I'm getting around 32mpg right now.


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## Vortex (Oct 9, 2008)

I'm thinking about an outback or forester to replace the Van.  Dog and two kids and junk.  Bigger is better IMO for the trip north.  A used SUV gets similar mileage to some mid to large size cars and the deals are insane on used suv's. Seen many explorers and Jimmy's 50k mileage in the 10k dollar range..  I got a 12 month 12 mile warrranty on mine thrown in as well.


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## Geoff (Oct 9, 2008)

My opinion about ski cars in the Northeast:

FWD vs AWD/4WD
With the advent of high tech snow tires, AWD/4WD is completely unnecessary for most people.  I own an SUV because I tow a boat.  No way I'd own it otherwise and I drive a FWD Volkswagen 99% of the time I don't need to tow or haul something.  My VW with Blizzak WS-60's is an excellent snow car and far better than my SUV with stock tires since it stops and corners properly in slick conditions.  If you have a major hill to deal with, big ruts during mud month, or pathetically poor plowing on a long driveway, 4WD, a skid plate, and some ground clearance makes sense but that's not the typical weekend skier.

You pay a substantial mileage penalty for an AWD system.  Most chew up 2 mpg from the added weight and friction.  You also spend more for the vehicle.  An AWD system is yet more to break.  Add up the numbers in 150K miles.  It's a lot of money for something you rarely use.

Type of car:
With two adults and an 11 & 15 year old who will both be adults during the ownership of your car, you need rear legroom.  That rules out a huge number of very nice FWD 30 mpg regular gas options.  Your choices are between another minivan, what is now classified as a large station wagon (Dodge Magnum, Ford Flex), or a crossover.  With the crossover, I'd be very tempted to omit the AWD option if it adds substantially to the price.


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## bvibert (Oct 9, 2008)

vcunning said:


> Yeah 20 MPG is a little low, but it's a 340 HP wagon.  It's a bit of a rocket.



I can certainly see how that would be fun, but 340HP is WAY more than I would need.  The MPG hit and the likely speeding ticket/insurance increase would definitely kill the deal for me.  My next car is going to have to get at least as good of mileage as my current car (the 1.8T is plenty speedy for me).  I can get 30ish MPG if I really try, but mid 20's is more typical the way I drive.  I'd like my next car to do a little better than that, though I don't know if I could handle the likely performance hit...


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## WJenness (Oct 9, 2008)

bvibert said:


> I can certainly see how that would be fun, but 340HP is WAY more than I would need.  The MPG hit and the likely speeding ticket/insurance increase would definitely kill the deal for me.  My next car is going to have to get at least as good of mileage as my current car (the 1.8T is plenty speedy for me).  I can get 30ish MPG if I really try, but mid 20's is more typical the way I drive.  I'd like my next car to do a little better than that, though I don't know if I could handle the likely performance hit...



I know you were talking about an Audi at one point... I've got a 2004 A4 (sedan) with the 3.0 v6 (6 speed) and my mileage is pretty much similar to what you posted except when my girlfriend drives the car... with her it's easy 15% better than when I drive... just as an FYI... and I love my car in the snow, it was great last year (first winter with it). AWD + all seasons... when these tires are done, I'll be getting a winter setup and a summer setup. the A4 avant may be just what you want. There are some great deals on just off lease stuff (how I got mine) and buying it certified is great for peace of mind.

-w


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## Glenn (Oct 9, 2008)

vcunning said:


> I gotta say, my Dodge Magnum (AWD Hemi) is the best ski car I've owned.  With all season tires, it seems to handle better than some other AWD/4WDs I've had (M-Class Mercedes and Jeep Wrangler).
> 
> They stopped making the Magnum last year, but the sedan versions are available in AWD as Chargers and 300s.  With the rocket box on top, it easily fits in the garage.  I can also get 20 MPG on ski trips if I'm easy on the accelerator.



That's bad ass! I love it! 8)

I'd probably get about 3mpg with something like that. I'd put an intake and an exhaust on it...then drive around with the windows open just to listen to the mechanical symphony . :lol:


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## tekweezle (Oct 9, 2008)

i only get about 24-26 mpg highway on my 2005 Forrester and am considering looking for a wagon that gets better gas mileage.  

Forrester has a good form factor and is everything I need, just wished I could eek out a little more mileage considering that its a regular 4 cyl vehicle.


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## bvibert (Oct 9, 2008)

WJenness said:


> I know you were talking about an Audi at one point... I've got a 2004 A4 (sedan) with the 3.0 v6 (6 speed) and my mileage is pretty much similar to what you posted except when my girlfriend drives the car... with her it's easy 15% better than when I drive... just as an FYI... and I love my car in the snow, it was great last year (first winter with it). AWD + all seasons... when these tires are done, I'll be getting a winter setup and a summer setup. the A4 avant may be just what you want. There are some great deals on just off lease stuff (how I got mine) and buying it certified is great for peace of mind.
> 
> -w



An A4 Avant with a stick is my dream car.  Right now my budget dictates an 01 VW instead.  I'm surprised you get such high numbers with the 6 cyl.  I have a VERY heavy foot though.  I'm one of those guys that pretty much floors it every time I start from a stop (or accelerate at all for that matter).  I've always been pretty heavy footed, but now with the turbo it's so much fun to hear it spooling up.


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## Glenn (Oct 9, 2008)

Play around with your tire pressure. IMHO, that's the most cost effective way to boost mileage. At the very least, check it weekly and make sure it's correct based on the sticker in the door jamb.


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## downhill04 (Oct 9, 2008)

I have to join in with the Subaru praise. I have a 07 Legacy and LOVE it. AWD 30mpg 175hp. handles better in the snow than any of the 4 SUV’s I previously owned. The Legacy might be a little small for you and the fam but the Forester should be big enough.

Will definitely buy another Subaru.


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## WJenness (Oct 9, 2008)

bvibert said:


> An A4 Avant with a stick is my dream car.  Right now my budget dictates an 01 VW instead.  I'm surprised you get such high numbers with the 6 cyl.  I have a VERY heavy foot though.  I'm one of those guys that pretty much floors it every time I start from a stop (or accelerate at all for that matter).  I've always been pretty heavy footed, but now with the turbo it's so much fun to hear it spooling up.



I'm shocked too. Every time I fill up the tank, I do the numbers in my head expecting it to be lower... but it isn't.

I drive decently heavy footed, but short shift a lot too... so I'm sure that helps... 

I know what you mean about the turbo. My buddy just bought a 2000 Audi S4 (I might have urged him a little bit)... that thing is so much fun. He just ordered a new bipipe and diverter valves... he's getting a chip next.... 

-w


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## Edd (Oct 9, 2008)

I drive an 02 Legacy Wagon and it gets worked hard (129,000 miles so far) and the reliability has been stellar.  I would love to stick with Subaru next time but gas prices have me thinking twice also.  Giving up AWD would suck though..

I like the look of the new Impreza hatchbacks but the damn things are tiny inside.  I figure this is how Subaru makes up for giving the customer AWD with competative pricing.  They get charged a space premium.  The latest Forester may be an exception.  I think I'd choose it over a CRV or RAV4.  That was the best move Subaru has made in years.  The worst was discontinuing the Legacy wagon in the US.


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## Hawkshot99 (Oct 9, 2008)

Edd said:


> I would love to stick with Subaru next time but gas prices have me thinking twice also.  Giving up AWD would suck though..



You could rig it up so you can turn the AWD off.....  My sister has a 06 or 07 Subaru.  The cheapest car they have(don't know the model).  Our mechanic installed a switch on the dash that can make it FWD.  Don't know what it does to her mileage, but it is better.


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## RootDKJ (Oct 9, 2008)

Geoff said:


> My opinion about ski cars in the Northeast:
> 
> FWD vs AWD/4WD
> With the advent of high tech snow tires, AWD/4WD is completely unnecessary for most people.  I own an SUV because I tow a boat.  No way I'd own it otherwise and I drive a FWD Volkswagen 99% of the time I don't need to tow or haul something.  My VW with Blizzak WS-60's is an excellent snow car and far better than my SUV with stock tires since it stops and corners properly in slick conditions.  If you have a major hill to deal with, big ruts during mud month, or pathetically poor plowing on a long driveway, 4WD, a skid plate, and some ground clearance makes sense but that's not the typical weekend skier.
> ...



My dad has the Ford Escape Hybrid in 2WD and gets around 40 MPG but he's in Flordia where they have less hills


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## BigJay (Oct 9, 2008)

I've had a Mazda3 for 4 years now. I live around Jay Peak and travel to the mountain on the harshest conditions and never had issues... Good tires make a great difference. I get around 29 MPG...

Last year we tought about changing to a Suby Impreza... But the higher cost of the car (about 4K more) plus it's lower fuel economy (23-25MPG) were too much difference for the benifit of having the all-wheel drive... So we bought another Mazda3...

I'm not saying you should get a 3 for the family... but "bigger is better" is not too wise when it comes to paying at the pump for the "added size"... And i'm about 5 miles from the mountain... and we do get tons of snow...

Down south, things are not as fierce... and having to haul around that big ass SUV all summer long for a couple of drives in winter isn't much worth it...

There are "bigger" cars out there for families... that won't ruin you at the pump! And seriously how useful is that big HEMI when everyone is driving at 30mph on the highway during a storm! Normally, all i see in the ditch are over-confident SUV drivers and skiers with no winter tires...

So in short: Smaller car, good tires and you're good ALL YEAR LONG! :grin:


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## mattchuck2 (Oct 9, 2008)

I'd go with this:

http://www.sportsmobile.com/4_4x4sports.html


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## Philpug (Oct 9, 2008)

Love my Subies.


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## RichT (Oct 9, 2008)

I've got a "99 Subie station wagon(23mpg) that we leave up at Hunter, 02 Subie station wagon(30mpg) for my wife here at home and a 08 Toyota Highlander(22mpg)..........the best out of the three per milage/snow worthiness is the 02 (bought it on ebay!!) GOOD LUCK!


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## thinnmann (Oct 9, 2008)

mattchuck2 said:


> I'd go with this:
> 
> http://www.sportsmobile.com/4_4x4sports.html



LOL

Unfortunately $60-$90K is out of my budget guidelines.

You think they really got it out of there without a helicopter?


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## andrec10 (Oct 9, 2008)

We have a 08 Subie Tribeca. Even with the Goodyear LS2's on it, it still was a goat in the snow last winter. I just ordered 4 Michelin Latitude Aplin's for snows. Cant wait. It gets 22 mpg on the highway, and about 20 with the Thule evolution 1800 on top. We also have a 06 Honda CRV that gets 26mpg even with the thule on it, though it is smaller on the inside. Besides the city gas mileage with the Tribeca (16mpg) and the 18inch tires, we absolutlely love it!


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## hardline (Oct 9, 2008)

Puck it said:


> I have the FJ. Great vehicle.  Go for it.



the only thing that puts me off is how tiny the vertical is on the winsheild. i kinda feel like im driving a tank. which isnt really a good thing for driving around the city. the nitro has plenty of visability. i ahve been stuck for like 3 months on this. i think my blazer will do one more winter but i would rather have something new.


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## hardline (Oct 9, 2008)

thinnmann said:


> LOL
> 
> Unfortunately $60-$90K is out of my budget guidelines.
> 
> You think they really got it out of there without a helicopter?



i so want one. i have always wanted a 4x4 van or a jeep.


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## mattchuck2 (Oct 9, 2008)

Yeah, ever since _Aspen Extreme_, I wanted to move out west and sleep in the bunk beds in the back of my van.  The van is in the background:


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## Glenn (Oct 9, 2008)

mattchuck2 said:


> I'd go with this:
> 
> http://www.sportsmobile.com/4_4x4sports.html



That's how Scot Schmidt rolls....I think at least.


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## thinnmann (Oct 9, 2008)

Only one Rav 4 minor mention?  How about Honda Element or CR-V?

Subaru Legacy and Forrester look great - but I can't fit my 15 y.o. kid in there for long.  We are too spoiled by those captain's chairs in the Town & Country.


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## snoseek (Oct 9, 2008)

An AWD toyota Matrix with a roof rack would comfortably fit four and get milage in the low 30's and be thousands less than a Suburu. Overall cost of Toyotas seem enticing too. If I had more $$$$ that would probably be my next car.


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## snoseek (Oct 9, 2008)

thinnmann said:


> Only one Rav 4 minor mention?  How about Honda Element or CR-V?
> 
> Subaru Legacy and Forrester look great - but I can't fit my 15 y.o. kid in there for long.  We are too spoiled by those captain's chairs in the Town & Country.



Yeah rav 4 would be a great vehicle if you need a bit more room, as would a Honda element.


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## eastcoastpowderhound (Oct 9, 2008)

another vote for the subys...we've got 2 in the garage; a 1998 outback with 135k and a 07 tribeca with 30k.  Wife used to drive a 97 outback, now she's got the tribeca.  my 98 gets 28mpg on the hwy doing 75ish...I run studded snows in the winter, some might call it overkill, but IMO tires are like footbeds and I don't ski on stock beds.  the tribeca gets 22mpg on avg running around town and we can get over 24 on trips if we're not stomping on the acc...still cruising at 75.  the tribeca has plenty of room, ours is a 7 seater...crowded with 7, but with 4 adults and ski gear in the back its plenty comfy...back seats recline.  personally I prefer the outback but the wife wanted something bigger otherwise we'd have bought a new outback...but i do enjoy driving the tribeca.  I've driven the outback through waist deep plow banks at the end of the driveway while my neighbor nearly got stuck in his tundra.


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## faceplant (Oct 9, 2008)

funny- I been thinkin the same myself & came acrost this 1 few days ago..  check it out- hope it aint gone yet

http://newjersey.craigslist.org/cto/859482969.html

good luck thin



wisht i could call myself thin, man


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## faceplant (Oct 9, 2008)

only 1 thing-  you drive a stick?


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## ccskier (Oct 10, 2008)

Going to look at Volvo XC 90's this weekend.  Not bad on mpg, wife had a major accident this week in her lincoln aviator, the fact that my wife and son are safe is way more important to me than gas mileage, if it costs me an extra $20 each way up to vt, then so be it.  All of the side curtains, dash bags, etc... went off.  Some lowlife pos kid in a little Hyundai hit her so hard that her big ass car got spun around.  People can knock gas guzzlers, but to me safety comes first.  We used to have a Volvo xc70, one of the best cars I have ever owned.  Tha A4 avant is way too small, No way 4 adults can ride comfortably especially after a long day of skiing, the Volvo xc70 is a much better car.


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## bigbog (Oct 10, 2008)

*...not fair!!!*



snowmonster said:


> I got a Jeep Patriot 4x4 last year for a shade less than 20K (it could have been cheaper but I just had to have a *sunroof*,...


FOUL!...:lol:  Cheap shot snowmonster!!!
Oh god, do I ever want one...not at FT yet;-)^$("{>#*%*$


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## vcunning (Oct 10, 2008)

thinnmann said:


> LOL
> 
> Unfortunately $60-$90K is out of my budget guidelines.



But the article referenced some key financial benefits:



_[*]  All interest charges may be deductible from your Federal Income Tax returns as a second home (motorhome). Consult with your accountant.
[*] RV insurance is less than a car.
[*] There is no luxury tax on motorhomes._


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## campgottagopee (Oct 10, 2008)

snoseek said:


> An AWD toyota Matrix with a roof rack would comfortably fit four and get milage in the low 30's and be thousands less than a Suburu. Overall cost of Toyotas seem enticing too. If I had more $$$$ that would probably be my next car.



Really???? The Matrix would be a compete with the Impreza line-up not the Forester and Outback that we have been speaking of.....just sayin'


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## andrec10 (Oct 10, 2008)

snoseek said:


> An AWD toyota Matrix with a roof rack would comfortably fit four and get milage in the low 30's and be thousands less than a Suburu. Overall cost of Toyotas seem enticing too. If I had more $$$$ that would probably be my next car.



A Matrix fitting 4 comfortably! Have you ever been in one. Maybe 4 midgets (small people).:blink:


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## WJenness (Oct 10, 2008)

andrec10 said:


> A Matrix fitting 4 comfortably! Have you ever been in one. Maybe 4 midgets (small people).:blink:



+1!

I'm 6'4" I do not fit in the backseat of a matrix (or a bunch of other cars for that matter).

One of my fiends has one.

We've used it when we all go somewhere a few times. I have to get shotgun or drive, it's the only way it works.

The AC outlet in the dash is pretty cool though.

-w


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## Warp Daddy (Oct 10, 2008)

My Saab sportcombi seats 4 adults  gets 34.5 mpg and is great in snow


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## SKIQUATTRO (Oct 10, 2008)

i have an 02 A4 Avant (5spd) and an 08 Volvo XC70, both with Thule bars for cargo box/bikes/surfboards...I have a family of 4 (3yrs and 6yrs)

We had a Nissan Armada and sold it right before Xmas and got the Volvo...wife just asked when the lease on the Volvo is up so she can get the new VW Routan...way more room than the wagons and my kids are still small...we haul alot of gear (skiing, beach, sailing, biking etc) 

get yourself a nice Toyota/Honda/Nissan minivan with a bulletproof engine and plenty of cargo room,,,


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## wa-loaf (Oct 10, 2008)

SKIQUATTRO said:


> the new VW Routan...



That's just a repackaged Chrysler I believe.


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## o3jeff (Oct 10, 2008)

I like the Honda Elements, its looks have grown on me. I have been thinking of getting rid of my car and getting one. Looking online at used ones they really seem to hold their value.


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## WJenness (Oct 10, 2008)

wa-loaf said:


> That's just a repackaged Chrysler I believe.



Ugh... don't tell me VAG is falling into that trap.

What's next? The new 2009 Audi S4 is really a Chevy Cobalt? uke:

-w


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## wa-loaf (Oct 10, 2008)

WJenness said:


> Ugh... don't tell me VAG is falling into that trap.
> 
> -w



Yup: http://allworldcars.com/wordpress/?p=7258


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## nelsapbm (Oct 10, 2008)

I have been VERY happy with my 07 Honda CRV. I wanted something with 4wd or AWD as I have a driveway from hell and a fairly long, hilly, commute. It came down to a CRV vs. Outback vs. Forester and the CRV won out. Its got "real time" 4WD so its in 2wd until it feels slippage, then kicks in the 4wd automatically. I get about 25-26 mpg on my commute (17 miles one way) and about 21-23 ish when I poke around town. I get 28ish on the interstate.  I found it to be much more comfy than the subaru, and being a previous Honda owner, I was sold. It kicks butt in the snow (the Blizzaks are going back on in a couple weeks). 
Test drive, test drive, test drive. Thats the only way you'll know for sure if its a car you can be comfortable in/with.


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## WJenness (Oct 10, 2008)

wa-loaf said:


> Yup: http://allworldcars.com/wordpress/?p=7258



Well, I have no desire to buy a mini-van ever, so I won't whine too much.

Hopefully they won't decide it's something they should do more of (particularly with the A4 / S4 line).

-w


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## andrec10 (Oct 10, 2008)

WJenness said:


> Ugh... don't tell me VAG is falling into that trap.
> 
> What's next? The new 2009 Audi S4 is really a Chevy Cobalt? uke:
> 
> -w



The 1st time I saw the Routon on TV, I said its a Dodge Caravan. I should know, my company car is a 08. How can they call that German engineering! Oh wait, the Dodge was engineered while they still part of Diamler...:-o


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## wa-loaf (Oct 10, 2008)

WJenness said:


> Well, I have no desire to buy a mini-van ever, so I won't whine too much.
> 
> Hopefully they won't decide it's something they should do more of (particularly with the A4 / S4 line).
> 
> -w



I don't see that happening. But it is kinda odd because they already have several mini-vans in the line-up in Europe.


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## hammer (Oct 10, 2008)

campgottagopee said:


> Really???? The Matrix would be a compete with the Impreza line-up not the Forester and Outback that we have been speaking of.....just sayin'


+1

I test drove a Matrix about a month ago...it was a pleasant car.  It had decent (but not exciting) pickup, it was a bit small in the back (I was concerned about fitting ski gear for 4 in there), and the interior room was good as long as you didn't get the moon roof (I'm only 5'9" though).

I haven't done a test drive on the Impreza yet but I'd guess it has similar interior space.  When I do finally decide to pull the trigger on a new car, I do wonder if I'll just end up getting another Outback.


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## bvibert (Oct 10, 2008)

wa-loaf said:


> That's just a repackaged Chrysler I believe.





WJenness said:


> Ugh... don't tell me VAG is falling into that trap.
> 
> What's next? The new 2009 Audi S4 is really a Chevy Cobalt? uke:
> 
> -w





wa-loaf said:


> Yup: http://allworldcars.com/wordpress/?p=7258



uke: Thanks for ruining my day...

That thing is pretty hideous looking anyway...


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## WJenness (Oct 10, 2008)

wa-loaf said:


> I don't see that happening. But it is kinda odd because they already have several mini-vans in the line-up in Europe.



Me neither... I just tend to get paranoid about things I like getting wrecked.

-w


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## Warp Daddy (Oct 10, 2008)

wa-loaf said:


> Yup: http://allworldcars.com/wordpress/?p=7258



Routan=FUGLY   a damn Pacifica re-packaged   VW hits the skids with this


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## snoseek (Oct 10, 2008)

WJenness said:


> +1!
> 
> I'm 6'4" I do not fit in the backseat of a matrix (or a bunch of other cars for that matter).
> 
> ...



It's all what you're used to I guess. I'm 6'1" and comfortably drive a little Civic around.


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## snoseek (Oct 10, 2008)

campgottagopee said:


> Really???? The Matrix would be a compete with the Impreza line-up not the Forester and Outback that we have been speaking of.....just sayin'



In what way? If your talking overall I'll show you a japanese car in my driveway that just tipped 300k and runs perfectly-original motor and transmission. I guess I have different priorities in cars than many.

How much is an Outback anyway 30k maybe?


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## WJenness (Oct 10, 2008)

snoseek said:


> It's all what you're used to I guess. I'm 6'1" and comfortably drive a little Civic around.



Like I said, driving is fine.

It's the lack of headroom in the backseats of most cars that gets me. When I have to slouch and tilt my head to the side, it's annoying after anything more than a half hour...

And it's not all small cars. My buddy has a Mazda 3, I can fit in the back of that fine, as well as my roommate's Yaris.

There's just no headroom in the backseat of a Matrix.

-w


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## hammer (Oct 10, 2008)

WJenness said:


> There's just no headroom in the backseat of a Matrix.


Did the Matrix have a moon roof?

The moon roof takes up a lot of head room in the back...I would never buy a Matrix with one.


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## Beetlenut (Oct 10, 2008)

I've been driving an AWD Mitisushi Outlander for 3 years and like the car, specially in the snow. You can get a loaded one of those for around $25k. Good headroom, and decent leg room in the rear. I get around 25 city and 28 highway.


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## WJenness (Oct 10, 2008)

hammer said:


> Did the Matrix have a moon roof?
> 
> The moon roof takes up a lot of head room in the back...I would never buy a Matrix with one.



I'm not sure... Likely though.

-w


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## bvibert (Oct 10, 2008)

WJenness said:


> Like I said, driving is fine.
> 
> It's the lack of headroom in the backseats of most cars that gets me. When I have to slouch and tilt my head to the side, it's annoying after anything more than a half hour...
> 
> ...



Being tall and sitting in the back of most cars doesn't usually work too well for me, if it's not the head room it's the leg room.  I've been tortured in the back seat of even some SUV due to lack of leg room.  Luckily I don't have to ride in the back seat of cars very often.  In the rare occasion that I'm riding in someone else's car I'm usually offered the front seat.


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## campgottagopee (Oct 10, 2008)

snoseek said:


> In what way? If your talking overall I'll show you a japanese car in my driveway that just tipped 300k and runs perfectly-original motor and transmission. I guess I have different priorities in cars than many.
> 
> How much is an Outback anyway 30k maybe?



Was talking size and car segment, meaning the Matrix is a h-back, or 5 door (like Impreza's), along with pricing. Impreza line is direct competitor of the Matrix, Rav4 is competitor of the Forester(suv's)---that's what I meant----Outbacks start at 25k (auto's), stick would be at 24k, and not the "basic" model either. That is all


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## jaywbigred (Oct 10, 2008)

Johnskiismore said:


> Saturn VUE might not be a bad choice either, good on gas(if you behave), and plenty of room when you utilize the roof rack.



Anyone know how the VUE handles in the snow? I've always liked it and thought it was a lot of car for the money.


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## drewfidelic (Oct 10, 2008)

For a minivan, the Toyota Sienna is f*&#ing awesome. It drives like a Camry. OK, that on it's own isn't all that impressive, since the Camry is boring as anything. But, compared with any other minivan I've driven (the various Chrysler and GM ones, albeit not the Honda Odyssey), the Sienna is in a class of its own. It's not exciting or fun to drive by any stretch of the imagination, but it is impeccably well-designed. If I was buying an on-road SUV or minivan, the Sienna would be one of the top choices. 

For anyone considering a Matrix, take a look at the Pontiac Vibe. It's the same exact car, but often a bit cheaper because it carries the Pontiac badge instead of a Toyota. (The one Matrix I drove felt very underpowered. I suspect having the 5-speed manual transmission makes a big difference over the 4 speed auto.)

But when thinking about a ski car, can you not consider a Subaru? It's the paradigmatic ski car. The new Forrester is a snazzy looking car.
________
Bondage bdsm


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## WJenness (Oct 10, 2008)

bvibert said:


> Being tall and sitting in the back of most cars doesn't usually work too well for me, if it's not the head room it's the leg room.  I've been tortured in the back seat of even some SUV due to lack of leg room.  Luckily I don't have to ride in the back seat of cars very often.  In the rare occasion that I'm riding in someone else's car I'm usually offered the front seat.



You and I probably shouldn't carpool with Sky then (unless Sky has a big car). That might not go well for us.

-w


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## Glenn (Oct 10, 2008)

jaywbigred said:


> Anyone know how the VUE handles in the snow? I've always liked it and thought it was a lot of car for the money.



I'd imagine if it had AWD it would do just fine.


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## BeanoNYC (Oct 10, 2008)

bvibert said:


> Subie wagons seem to be a popular choice amongst outdoor enthusiasts in general, skiers in particular.



+1  Best car I ever owned.  Got it in February and have 20K on it already.


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## Geoff (Oct 10, 2008)

RootDKJ said:


> My dad has the Ford Escape Hybrid in 2WD and gets around 40 MPG but he's in Flordia where they have less hills



Don't forget that dense winter air in the Northeast reduces your fuel economy dramatically.  The less aerodynamic the car, the worse the impact.  A Ford Escape is a totally reasonable crossover (car frame, disguised as an SUV) but I'd be amazed if you saw anything close to that MPG at 70 mph and single digits fahrenheit.  For me, I've always done a very large percentage of my driving on the highway so a hybrid doesn't help my fuel burn.  The added weight offsets the in-town savings.  I also hold cars forever and replacing batteries in a hybrid is expensive.  In a hot place like Florida, I'd be surprised if batteries lasted more than 3 years.  I know people in Pheonix who get a free battery every year off warranty since they cook in the 130F weather.


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## RootDKJ (Oct 10, 2008)

Geoff said:


> Don't forget that dense winter air in the Northeast reduces your fuel economy dramatically.  The less aerodynamic the car, the worse the impact.  A Ford Escape is a totally reasonable crossover (car frame, disguised as an SUV) but I'd be amazed if you saw anything close to that MPG at 70 mph and single digits fahrenheit.  For me, I've always done a very large percentage of my driving on the highway so a hybrid doesn't help my fuel burn.  The added weight offsets the in-town savings.  I also hold cars forever and replacing batteries in a hybrid is expensive.  In a hot place like Florida, I'd be surprised if batteries lasted more than 3 years.  I know people in Pheonix who get a free battery every year off warranty since they cook in the 130F weather.



Yeah, I see about a 6-8 MPG hit in the winter.  Also because the engine wants to maintain a certain temperature range the gas engine cycles on and off more in addition to the cold weather factor.  The cold weather factor doesn't only affect Hybrids, all vehicles loose efficiency because of it.   It seems like the cut-off point it 64 MPH.  The faster an object moves, the heavier it weighs.

The weight of the batteries doesn't affect city driving at all because the engine doesn't run as often.  Ford offers 100K / 8 year warranty on the batteries.  My dad's is about three years old he's never had a problem.  They battery has it's own HVAC system.


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## gladerider (Oct 10, 2008)

we take my wify's honda '05 pilot (+ factory thule rack) to our weekend ski trips. with 2 kids and 4-6 hours of drive each way to VT, anything smaller don't cut it for us. get around 20 mpg.


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## thinnmann (Oct 10, 2008)

*It's moving the air that counts*



RootDKJ said:


> The faster an object moves, the heavier it weighs.



I'm not a physicist, but I think that only happens in the LHC, not the GSP or the LIE....  :lol:


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## muleski (Oct 10, 2008)

I have to cast a vote for the Subie. We have a Toyota Landcruiser, with a ton of miles on it, and I've had a series of AWD wagons {Audi S6, Volvo V70, Passat W8 4motion as of late}. We bought a 2002 H6 Outback last summer for our daughter, and with 4 snows it is THE best car that I've driven in 35+ years as a skiing driver. AbsoIute tank. I've run four studded snows on most of my cars, so I'm not saying this lightly. It's fabulous in lousy weather. I got rid of the Passat {talk about maintenance costs!} in January and bought a lightly used Legacy GT wagon, which I adore. My brother's wife just downsized from an Envoy to an Outback 3.0R. Great car. I'm amazed at how well the Subie's drive, at their utility and frankly the room inside. I have a roof box on mine, and while it's not as cavernous as the LC, it has a lot of room inside. The built quality of the cars is outstanding, and I expect that they will be Subie reliable. The 2002 has 66K on the clock, and knock on wood, looks a drives like new. Great snow cars!


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## RootDKJ (Oct 10, 2008)

thinnmann said:


> I'm not a physicist, but I think that only happens in the LHC, not the GSP or the LIE....  :lol:



LOL...have you been on the NJ Turnpike recently?


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## ZYDECORICH (Oct 10, 2008)

have to agree with others here. i have a pilot which is great but my 1996 subie legacy wagon manual, is still going strong. 224,867 miles, original trans, only 2 exhausts, 2 clutches. been all over the northeast with it. great in snow, never been stuck.if you can find a used one with low miles grab it!


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## playoutside (Oct 10, 2008)

Couple thoughts...
Looked at cars this past weekend and pretty sure the AWD Matrix only get in the 20s, not even highway was 30.

Everybody seems to love the Subies.  Do any of you have long legs?  I find Subie seats really uncomfortable.  The seat is too short so there is no support which is miserable on long drives.

Question about snow tires... I was car shopping with my sister recently and she started by wanting AWD, no SUV.  Quickly shifted to looking at FWD because of mileage and price.  She is a nervous winter driver and spends a lot of time on winding, hilly, country roads.  How much will snow tires help on something like a Mazda3 or Civic?


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## snoseek (Oct 11, 2008)

playoutside said:


> How much will snow tires help on something like a Mazda3 or Civic?




They will do the job just fine. I got my way over Berthoud or Loveland Pass last year with a Civic well over 100 days last winter with cheap snow tires. There were countless days that were raging snowstorms and I never once got stuck. I did get stuck the winter before after a typical heavy wet New england dump but that was a couple of feet and they plowed me in.


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## Geoff (Oct 11, 2008)

RootDKJ said:


> The faster an object moves, the heavier it weighs.



A new law of physics.  

I was talking about wind resistance which is proportional to the square of your velocity.  Air is denser at cold temperatures.  A car with crap aerodynamics has a bigger falloff in MPG in the winter than a more aerodynamic car.


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## RootDKJ (Oct 11, 2008)

But again, the cold air density affects all vehicles, not just hybrids and hybrids still maintain an edge off highway.


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## Geoff (Oct 11, 2008)

playoutside said:


> Couple thoughts...
> Looked at cars this past weekend and pretty sure the AWD Matrix only get in the 20s, not even highway was 30.
> 
> Everybody seems to love the Subies.  Do any of you have long legs?  I find Subie seats really uncomfortable.  The seat is too short so there is no support which is miserable on long drives.
> ...



The AWD system on a Matrix gives you the usual big mileage penalty.  Subtract 2 mpg from the FWD version of the car.

My mom and my sister have been Subaru owners since the mid-1970's.  I'm 6'2" and I feel cramped in the cars.  My daily driver is a Volkswagen and I fit just fine.

Snow tires:
I'm a firm believer in studless friction tires in the Northeast.  Our problem here isn't so much snow... it's black ice.  A Civic or a Mazda3 with modern friction tires intended for ice will out-perform a 4WD SUV with stock tires on black ice.  The car is lighter so it will brake and corner better.  I ran Nokians on my last VW GTI and Blizzak WS-60's on my current GTI.  Ice is slippery because there is a water layer between the frozen ice and your tire.  As the tire compresses the ice, it generates enough heat to melt the ice slightly and develop the water layer down to around 20F.  At extremely cold temperatures, you actually get pretty good traction on ice since it doesn't develop this water layer.  A studless ice tire has lots of siping cuts in it to give the water layer somewhere to go.  

If you live in Colorado, you don't hit this condition so you optimize for driving in snow.  Cheap snow tires work just fine.  In the Northeast, you want a softer rubber compound and the siping cuts.

The only time you'll have snow driving issues in a Civic with high tech snow tires is when you bottom out in deep unplowed snow.  There's really no substitute for ground clearance.  With an AWD system, you can plow your way through it even if you're bottoming out.  The other problem you'll have is funky handling on unplowed slop.  That's due to the weight of the car and the short wheelbase.  A heavy SUV will plow right through 6" of wet slop.  A Civic will want to float on top of the slop.  An AWD system and good tires will help some but no light, short-wheelbase car is going to feel all that stable in that condition.  You won't get stuck but you'll have to slow down.  Probably, everybody in front of you has already slowed down so it's not much of an issue.  In my GTI, it's a challenge pulling out into the unplowed left lane during a storm.  My SUV has studded Nokians and I can pull out into unplowed without thinking much about it.

Here's an image of a Blizzak WS-60.  Notice all the siping cuts to channel away the water layer.  You can buy a set online at Tire Rack mounted on steel wheels.  Instead of rotating tires twice per year, you put on snow tires.  For a Civic or a Mazda3, the small tire size won't break the bank.  It gives you a huge amount of added safety margin and is much cheaper than the added purchase price and lifetime added fuel burn of an AWD system.


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## Geoff (Oct 11, 2008)

RootDKJ said:


> But again, the cold air density affects all vehicles, not just hybrids and hybrids still maintain an edge off highway.



For my personal lifetime driving pattern, a hybrid wouldn't do much of anything.  I've always had 90% highway driving either commuting or going somewhere on weekends.  It's a huge win for city driving but I don't do much of that at all.

I never said anything about hybrids and cold air density.  The topic was the Ford Escape and that ain't eggsactly aerodynamic.  I'd expect a significant mileage drop in winter driving.  A more slippery car won't see as much of an impact.


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## fixedgrip16 (Oct 11, 2008)

Add a vote for Suby Outbacks. Got a '99 with full winter weather package and it'll plow snow up to its axles and over the hood. There's nothing it can't handle-- 2' slush/ice in the driveway or if the main road's unplowed after a couple feet first thing in the A.M. Good vehicle for 2 people traveling (-- take headrests off and lay seats down--- quite a bit of room). One thing-- mine anyway was one of ones that had faulty headgaskets in the 2.5L. Blew the original engine at 80K but a friend found a dual port 2.2 Legacy engine with under 70K. ('94) and along with the wiring harness and other stuff converted over the engine with the same exhaust and transmission. Car has run well now for 30K and a good decision over getting a replacement 2.5 which probably would have blown in the same time frame. I think they've fixed the problem since the '99 so any 2.5 after should be fine. But the older Suby Legacy 2.2's are the best engines imaginable. Can't kill 'em. My friend who installed mine (don't do this at home or anywhere:-D)  tested one one time to see if he could kill it. So he ran one for a half hour w/o oil or antifreeze and it kept on running. Shut it off and it started again. For how long or how it sounded I don't know but they're tough engines and tanks in snow.


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## bigbog (Oct 11, 2008)

*Here's a thought...*

A $.02 thought from the boonies of Maine,
One of the Subies(ie Forrester) or something, little body & suspension lifts..autobody work around fenders to make way for larger tires.  A check with your trans/gear-ratio/axles=torque...spacing(for the slightly larger tires)...will be heaven in the snow...and anywhere for anything outdoors.
*Geoff's mention of black ice is 100% accurate...ice is the demon of winter driving...

SteveD


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## fixedgrip16 (Oct 11, 2008)

Boonies?? You got that right. Look at it this way though. I'm getting some grazin' ol' dates with Mrs.Cowmoose. :grin: Subys rock. I put the Studs on my Outback and it becomes the snowslasher.:beer:


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## campgottagopee (Oct 11, 2008)

Lookin to me that Subies got it!!!!


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## o3jeff (Oct 11, 2008)

Wow, having car threads seem to be as bad as having a political thread.


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## riverc0il (Oct 11, 2008)

Great thoughts from Geoff in this thread. I always smirk a little bit when these "ski car" threads come up because any car with a reasonably good set of snow tires will work great for driving in the snow. Many folks automatically assume that a "ski car" needs to have AWD. While AWD helps in many conditions, it is very rare that you truly "need" AWD as long as you have snows. The "need" would arise, as Geoff mentions, if you live on a hill, have a poorly plowed drive way, etc. AWD is not needed on pavement unless it is truly unsafe to drive. Meanwhile, I think it would not be a good idea to rely on AWD without snows for good traction and safety. All that said, AWD and Snows is definitely the ultimate in safety and winter driveability and assurances if you are driving in areas that are suspect on conditions (off pavement, steep dirt roads, etc.) and will probably be something I look for in my next car.

For the AWD'ers, the redesigned Forseter still looks pretty lame to my eyes. But it is a HUGE step forward in design compared to the last series in the line. One of the best redesigns on a vehicle line I have ever seen. Seems like a really good option for traveling with a lot of gear if the Outback seems too small. The Outback seems like one of the best all arounders with decent MPG at just under 30 MPG. The Matrix/Vibe AWD seems kind of high priced for what it is. Not a lot of good AWD options that are not crossover, SUV, truck, etc. The four door passenger cars that have AWD (with exception of the Subaru models) all seem to be mostly upper price tag models.

I say don't forget to take AWD out of the picture and consider getting a vehicle with snow tires that matches your other needs (space, MPG, rack options, features, looks, maintenance costs, etc.).


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## campgottagopee (Oct 11, 2008)

riverc0il said:


> Great thoughts from Geoff in this thread. I always smirk a little bit when these "ski car" threads come up because any car with a reasonably good set of snow tires will work great for driving in the snow. Many folks automatically assume that a "ski car" needs to have AWD. While AWD helps in many conditions, it is very rare that you truly "need" AWD as long as you have snows. The "need" would arise, as Geoff mentions, if you live on a hill, have a poorly plowed drive way, etc. AWD is not needed on pavement unless it is truly unsafe to drive. Meanwhile, I think it would not be a good idea to rely on AWD without snows for good traction and safety. All that said, AWD and Snows is definitely the ultimate in safety and winter driveability and assurances if you are driving in areas that are suspect on conditions (off pavement, steep dirt roads, etc.) and will probably be something I look for in my next car.
> 
> For the AWD'ers, the redesigned Forseter still looks pretty lame to my eyes. But it is a HUGE step forward in design compared to the last series in the line. One of the best redesigns on a vehicle line I have ever seen. Seems like a really good option for traveling with a lot of gear if the Outback seems too small. The Outback seems like one of the best all arounders with decent MPG at just under 30 MPG. The Matrix/Vibe AWD seems kind of high priced for what it is. Not a lot of good AWD options that are not crossover, SUV, truck, etc. The four door passenger cars that have AWD (with exception of the Subaru models) all seem to be mostly upper price tag models.
> 
> I say don't forget to take AWD out of the picture and consider getting a vehicle with snow tires that matches your other needs (space, MPG, rack options, features, looks, maintenance costs, etc.).



Nice read---thanks. I'm glad you guys (the AWD don't needers:razz give yourselves an out by saying "in most" cases AWD isn't needed. I say that because YOU WOULD NOT MAKE IT UP MY DRIVEWAY without AWD/4WD. Yes, it's a rare occasion that most people normally wouldn't run into, but for my $$$$$ couldn't be without it.


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## riverc0il (Oct 11, 2008)

campgottagopee said:


> Nice read---thanks. I'm glad you guys (the AWD don't needers:razz give yourselves an out by saying "in most" cases AWD isn't needed. I say that because YOU WOULD NOT MAKE IT UP MY DRIVEWAY without AWD/4WD. Yes, it's a rare occasion that most people normally wouldn't run into, but for my $$$$$ couldn't be without it.


I leave myself an out because I have been there. We had a nasty driveway up in VT and almost got stuck trying to get up and around a few times. One time, S always skidded into a hill  and tipped the car due to black ice (despite starting down the drive way at a snails pace). AWD would not have helped at all but AWD and Snows would have made a scary moment a non-issue. And AWD and Snows would have made me less nurvous during the nights of a big storm (am I going to get my car up the dirt road barely plowed drive way and go skiing or not?).

Don't lump me in with the "AWD don't needers" because I feel for my obsessive needs (especially earned turn needs which occasionally put me in places not well plowed) in actually would help. But I question any one that says they "need" AWD if they only drive on pavement and don't have any big hills to make it up. I've blown by SUVs without snows in my light weight 2WD w/snows. It is a creature comfort for most people that costs more up front and down the road when a $150-200 per year on snow tires would easily get the job done.

I always like to toss that out there because when people start talking ski cars, most automatically think AWD is a must. There are other more important factors unless AWD is definitely "needed".


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## campgottagopee (Oct 11, 2008)

riverc0il said:


> I leave myself an out because I have been there. We had a nasty driveway up in VT and almost got stuck trying to get up and around a few times. One time, S always skidded into a hill  and tipped the car due to black ice (despite starting down the drive way at a snails pace). AWD would not have helped at all but AWD and Snows would have made a scary moment a non-issue. And AWD and Snows would have made me less nurvous during the nights of a big storm (am I going to get my car up the dirt road barely plowed drive way and go skiing or not?).
> 
> Don't lump me in with the "AWD don't needers" because I feel for my obsessive needs (especially earned turn needs which occasionally put me in places not well plowed) in actually would help. But I question any one that says they "need" AWD if they only drive on pavement and don't have any big hills to make it up. I've blown by SUVs without snows in my light weight 2WD w/snows. It is a creature comfort for most people that costs more up front and down the road when a $150-200 per year on snow tires would easily get the job done.
> 
> I always like to toss that out there because when people start talking ski cars, most automatically think AWD is a must. There are other more important factors unless AWD is definitely "needed".



All that is true---AWD/4WD does nothing to help you stop and that's where the majority of issues arrive in winter driving. I've come to the conclusion that some peeps just "feel better" or more secure in AWD, so for them I guess it's worth the added $$$$ for peace of mind.


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## ccskier (Oct 11, 2008)

Bought the wife a big gas guzzling Ford Expedition today, comfort and the big feel for safety outweighs the econmical issue.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Oct 11, 2008)

campgottagopee said:


> All that is true---AWD/4WD does nothing to help you stop and that's where the majority of issues arrive in winter driving. I've come to the conclusion that some peeps just "feel better" or more secure in AWD, so for them I guess it's worth the added $$$$ for peace of mind.



One of the reasons I bought my Impreza three years ago was because Suburu is the only car company I know of where there is no surcharge for AWD/4WD..AWD makes a huge difference if you get stuck because on my old Sentra..if my front tires were stuck I was screwed..you have more options with AWD..


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Oct 11, 2008)

ccskier said:


> Bought the wife a big gas guzzling Ford Expedition today, comfort and the big feel for safety outweighs the econmical issue.



You must have got an incredible deal..I don't think many Expeditions are selling..


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## tommy5402 (Oct 12, 2008)

Bought an 08 nissan rogue last winter and love it.


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## air0rmc (Oct 12, 2008)

It depends on budget and how you travel.In your neck of the woods fwd and stability control on four nokian WRG2 tires will be more than adequate.Heated seats are a must also.I have had Audi's,VW and Subaru's I now have a Ford Freestyle crossover and it is big and rides great.Nothing compares to european quality and ride but you will pay a hefty premium and beware of used european cars maint.costs  can be devastating to a budget.Now is a great time to buy anything you like.My pick would be VW passat or the new VW minivan (nice) heated seats front and back.Subaru tribeca,Honda pilot are nice also.Good luck let us know what you picked.....!


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## andrec10 (Oct 12, 2008)

I have had both the Toyota Highlander and the Honda Pilot before our 08 Tribeca, and I can tell you the Subie wins in the snow hands down, even with crappy tires. (Goodyear LS2's). I really feel the Tribeca tries to emulate teh BMW X5 series to a point, and does so very well.


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## thinnmann (Oct 12, 2008)

*Great thread - thanks to all who shared their opinions!*

This is a highly informational thread, huh?  I bet the car dealers are googling this one....

So I really see the overwhelming message is Subaru.  They are obviously great cars, especially looking at the used pricing on vehicles with lots of miles!  Been checking them out online and am gonna see if I can get out for some test drives this week.  Going Subaru might have a lot to do with how my son's knees can handle the back seat.  I generally like the looks of the smaller Outback over the Forrester, but there is a sweet black '04 Forester XT w/64K miles practically down the street from me at the Honda dealer.  If I can get them to take the Town & Country as a trade at a little more than current KBB, I can grab it for under 10K.

I am not real great at moving fast on purchases like this, though.  So I'll let you know if anything actually happens.


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## eastcoastpowderhound (Oct 12, 2008)

playoutside said:


> Couple thoughts...
> Looked at cars this past weekend and pretty sure the AWD Matrix only get in the 20s, not even highway was 30.
> 
> Everybody seems to love the Subies.  Do any of you have long legs?  I find Subie seats really uncomfortable.  The seat is too short so there is no support which is miserable on long drives.
> ...



I've got a 34" inseam...my outback seats aren't as comfy as the saabs I used to drive but I don't find them uncomfortable...the leather seats are built differently than the cloth seats...our 97 had cloth, my 98 has leather, there was a diff there.  but if a cushy seat is the trade off for how they grip the road, I'll take grip every time.

snow tires are like custom footbeds...huge diff over all season.  I've lived in places where I had to use chains on FWD....used to have 50mile commutes on ME backroads, hilly drives in Tahoe and CO, I wouldn't ski without a footbed and I won't run the cars in the winter w/out snows.


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## wa-loaf (Oct 12, 2008)

thinnmann said:


> I bet the car dealers are googling this one....



hehe, fyi, campgottagopee is a subi dealer.


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## millerm277 (Oct 12, 2008)

Friend of mine has a Subaru, it'll go through anything. Great in the snow.
Our Mazda Tribute has also been quite good for skiing, thule makes a good rack for it, handles the snow and resort parking lots well, and isn't bad on gas.

I have the least most impractical ski vehicle of anyone here I think...1993 Nissan 300zx.


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## air0rmc (Oct 13, 2008)

eastcoastpowderhound said:


> I've got a 34" inseam...my outback seats aren't as comfy as the saabs I used to drive but I don't find them uncomfortable...the leather seats are built differently than the cloth seats...our 97 had cloth, my 98 has leather, there was a diff there.  but if a cushy seat is the trade off for how they grip the road, I'll take grip every time.
> 
> snow tires are like custom footbeds...huge diff over all season.  I've lived in places where I had to use chains on FWD....used to have 50mile commutes on ME backroads, hilly drives in Tahoe and CO, I wouldn't ski without a footbed and I won't run the cars in the winter w/out snows.



Tires are four of the most important components on your car,and can have a dramatic affect on safety and driver confidence.I live in North central NY state (heavy lake affect snow belt) and commuted to Boston,Newark and Philadelphia airport weekly for 15 years averaging 900 miles a week and now have been commuting to Syracuse airport for 2.5 years daily.I have learned alot about tires,awd and fwd on Audi,VW,Sube,Toyota and dom SUV's and Pickups (when gas was 95 cents a gallon on the NJTP).AWD is nice piece of mind but overkill on most main roads.I can count on one hand how many times I could not have made it without AWD.If you are a rural mail carrier or have a challenginng driveway that is different.In my opinion AWD is most important for traction from a dead stop and ascending hills in heavy snow or ice,but FWD with the right tires will do the trick.Any snow tire for example Hankook I pike or the popular Blizzak will be night and day depending on road condition and speed but on those dry pavement days can be noisy and unpredictable and cause premature wear.All seasons are all over field some ok some dangerously unsafe in snow and ice but none good.The one exception is the NOKIAN tire and the reason is it is an all season with hard core snow tire performance and high performance in rain and dry pavement with unbelievable treadwear.WR model or WRG2,check them out online you wont be dissappointed infact you will be amazed....!


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## andrec10 (Oct 13, 2008)

I found the Nokian wr tires good in snow, but VERY noisy. I have the Michelin X-ice on a CRV, and these tires are quiet, and transform the CRV into a Mtn goat!


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## SKIQUATTRO (Oct 13, 2008)

I have no desire for a MV either, but somethings just make financial/family sense....Of course I'd like to get back into another Armada or Sequoia, but if you take a step back and think about it I paid alot for the Armada for features i never used (4x4 HI or LO was never used) it had AWD with BFG All Terrains and it was fantastic, I never took it on the beach or off road (99% of SUVs never do either)  the Pros were the cargo room, bullet proof engine, ground clearance (made use of it 1x) and the Agro feeling of being in a manly SUV.....Cons were cost to run (fuel was $90/week pre Xmas of 2007)  Cant let the "what will others think of me in a minivan" to cloud the decision...the extra fuel savings are better spent towards my kids 529 plan...


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## campgottagopee (Oct 13, 2008)

wa-loaf said:


> hehe, fyi, campgottagopee is a subi dealer.



Shhhhhh, that's our little secret8)


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## air0rmc (Oct 13, 2008)

andrec10 said:


> I found the Nokian wr tires good in snow, but VERY noisy. I have the Michelin X-ice on a CRV, and these tires are quiet, and transform the CRV into a Mtn goat!



I like the ice x,it is my #2 choice for dedicated snow tire.Comparing it to the wr is not apples to apples though for obvious reasons.The folks in Finland claim to have worked out the noise issue with the wr and also improved slush performance by 30% with the newly designed wrg2 which if turns out to be true will dwarf any tire on the market in severe weather performance plus it stays on your car for 50k plus with minimal performance degradation that I have found to be 90% true,thats not bad.So if you travel at highway speed in changing surface conditions (like going skiing in the North East) you will not be let down by the nokian wrg2... or hakkapalita 2 for very severe snow and slush 100% of the time for 5 months....! I do not want to get in trouble....we should be talking ski's and skiing


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## playoutside (Oct 13, 2008)

Lots of great comments on the snow tires.  Really appreciate the info from all of you.  Now I just need to help my sister narrow her choices and negotiate.  Such fun buying a new car.


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## Geoff (Oct 13, 2008)

air0rmc said:


> I like the ice x,it is my #2 choice for dedicated snow tire.Comparing it to the wr is not apples to apples though for obvious reasons.The folks in Finland claim to have worked out the noise issue with the wr and also improved slush performance by 30% with the newly designed wrg2 which if turns out to be true will dwarf any tire on the market in severe weather performance plus it stays on your car for 50k plus with minimal performance degradation that I have found to be 90% true,thats not bad.So if you travel at highway speed in changing surface conditions (like going skiing in the North East) you will not be let down by the nokian wrg2... or hakkapalita 2 for very severe snow and slush 100% of the time for 5 months....! I do not want to get in trouble....we should be talking ski's and skiing



I went with the Blizzak WS-60 last November mostly because I could one-stop-shop the tires, wheels, and tire pressure monitoring system at TireRack.com.  I would prefer to run Nokians since you get 2x the wear out of them and I'll likely replace what I'm running now with Nokians.  If you have the time, you can poke around eBay and the enthusiast web sites for your car to find almost-new used wheels somebody has pulled off their car.  I've done that twice before but I bought my VW last Halloween and needed a winter setup ASAP.

I think the Nokian WR is a very good choice for metro-NYC or points south where you're doing 90+% dry road driving and see fairly warm temperatures during the shoulder seasons.  I prefer to run a softer tire to get better black ice performance.  You have to get soft snow tires off the car prompty on April 1 or they'll melt away to nothing in the warm weather.  The WR gives you the advantage of using it all year so you don't need separate wheels but you give up some winter performance...  I prefer the added safety margin.   I got 25,000 miles out of a Nokian Hakka Q (which became the RSi and is now the Hakka R).   I doubt I'll see anything close to that with the Blizzak's I'm running now.

If you are trying to do snow tires on the cheap, the big box warehouse stores like BJ's Wholesale and Costco usually sell snow tires at a discount with free mounting and lifetime free tire rotation.  You're going to end up with whatever models they happen to sell but the price is right.  With used wheels from a take-off, it won't break the bank for a compact car.  I tend to see them selling the Michelin X Ice.  That snow tire does just fine in any of the bake-offs I've seen.  Consumer Reports rated it #1 but I always take their car-related reviews with a grain of salt.

I agree that snow tires are like custom footbeds.  Once you have them, they become essential.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 13, 2008)

Geoff I've been taking a look at Tire Rack for package deals as you suggested.  It seems to me that it makes more sense to simply buy 4 new snows on wheels instead of taking off my All seasons and putting them back on in the fall.  I have an extremely limited budget though and the steel wheels that are offered don't have a pressure monitoring system.  What disadvantages or safety concerns might I have without it?


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## wa-loaf (Oct 13, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> Geoff I've been taking a look at Tire Rack for package deals as you suggested.  It seems to me that it makes more sense to simply buy 4 new snows on wheels instead of taking off my All seasons and putting them back on in the fall.  I have an extremely limited budget though and the steel wheels that are offered don't have a pressure monitoring system.  What disadvantages or safety concerns might I have without it?



You've probably got a TownFair tire near you and they match Tirerack pricing as well as having free tire rotations/flat repair for the life of the tire. Even if you are not matching tirerack prices you can usually negotiate a discount out of them.

Also, free snow tire swap over if you bought them from them.


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## eastcoastpowderhound (Oct 13, 2008)

wa-loaf said:


> You've probably got a TownFair tire near you and they match Tirerack pricing as well as having free tire rotations/flat repair for the life of the tire. Even if you are not matching tirerack prices you can usually negotiate a discount out of them.
> 
> Also, free snow tire swap over if you bought them from them.



I got the Hakkas for my wife's tribeca from john & sons (627-1585) tire in Manchester...they were $100 less (for the set of 4) than tire rack and town fair.  Not sure what you drive but sometimes you can get wheels from a junkyard for a good price.  I got the steel wheels for my outback from lake region imports in windham me for $15 a piece.


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## campgottagopee (Oct 13, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> Geoff I've been taking a look at Tire Rack for package deals as you suggested.  It seems to me that it makes more sense to simply buy 4 new snows on wheels instead of taking off my All seasons and putting them back on in the fall.  I have an extremely limited budget though and the steel wheels that are offered don't have a pressure monitoring system.  What disadvantages or safety concerns might I have without it?




Not having the TPMS sensors isn't a big deal. Only thing that will happen is your "warning light" will stay on letting you know you have a "soft" tire. No worries, no biggie


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## Geoff (Oct 13, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> Geoff I've been taking a look at Tire Rack for package deals as you suggested.  It seems to me that it makes more sense to simply buy 4 new snows on wheels instead of taking off my All seasons and putting them back on in the fall.  I have an extremely limited budget though and the steel wheels that are offered don't have a pressure monitoring system.  What disadvantages or safety concerns might I have without it?



Personally, I've always had problems with slow leaks and flats.  Like most of us, I rarely check my tire pressure.  Most cars I've owned, I've blown up at least one tire by running it under-inflated.  With TPMS, you know you have a problem immediately.  With expensive tires, I think TPMS pretty much pays for itsself since you don't blow up tires as they leak.  As far as safety, I don't think it's that big a deal.  If you have a flat, you can certainly feel it before you've completely shredded the tire and lost control.  It's more the convenience of knowing way in advance that you have a slow leak so you're not changing a tire by the side of the road.  The system I have on my VW is a Bosch system on the valve stem that transmits pressure and temperature to a receiver unit in the wheel well.  If I wanted to be a true geek, I could hook up a diag cable and see my tire pressure and temperature in real time as I'm driving.  I scan the car for fault codes once in a while (usually at 5K oil change intervals) but I rely on the idiot light to tell me I have a tire pressure problem.

It doesn't hurt anything to drive a car with no TPMS.  On my VW, I can reprogram the engine control unit to disable the idiot light.  I'll bet you can do that on pretty much any car but you need the cable and the software.

If you're on a tight budget, take a hard look at the Nokian WR.  It's an all-season tire... if you live north of the Arctic Circle.  Pull your stock tires off and run the WR all year.  If you still have life in your old tires, sell 'em on Craig's List.  Davies Tire in Portsmouth carries them.  They do not discount and they charge for mounting.  I beat them down a few dollars but I was awfully close to paying retail.  I haven't shopped Nokian recently but you might be able to find internet dealers who are cheaper these days.  The Nokian Tire web site has a dealer locator so you can probably make a few calls to try to cut the price some.  They're not cheap but you don't have to go out and buy spare wheels and they're way better than stock all season tires.


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## riverc0il (Oct 13, 2008)

I got the X Ice last season. Good but not worth the premium compared to cheaper snows (IMO). Almost _too_ soft as handling suffers on dry pavement more than other snows I have used.


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## Geoff (Oct 13, 2008)

riverc0il said:


> I got the X Ice last season. Good but not worth the premium compared to cheaper snows (IMO). Almost _too_ soft as handling suffers on dry pavement more than other snows I have used.



Any tire designed to give you black ice performance is going to feel like you have four gum erasers out there for tires.  If you are optimizing for black ice, you give up handling.  I have 18" performance tires on my VW GTI.  With 16" Blizzaks on it, the handling is awful.  I could have gone with 17" wheels for the winter but I'd rather have the extra margin so I'm not bending rims on pot holes.

The studded Nokian Hakka SUVs on my Mountaineer make the car handle like it's farm equipment.  The stock tires are so lousy on ice that the thing is dangerous on downhill sweeping corners.  It's little surprise that you see so many SUVs upside-down in the median strip.  You get a huge false sense of security in them.  They feel stable as long as you are going straight.  If you touch the brakes or turn the wheel, your world can end pretty quickly.  With studded tires, my biggest worry is getting rear ended if I ever need to apply the brakes.


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## roark (Oct 13, 2008)

Geoff said:


>


Picked up a set of these for the AWD SUV from Tire Rack over the summer for about 50% off. Should be nice...

That said, the fwd econobox with el cheapo studded snows (next time I'll probably go studless, the noise is intense) usually gets the nod and has yet to let me down (or even scare me) in snow as deep as the bumper (that was a hoot actually). Second set of wheels was cheap (13 in), so I just swap em and call it the annual "tire rotation." If I ever did slide into a ditch or something like that, the lighter car is also easier to extract than a behemoth.  

Really, my only concern in the econobox is saftey with all the flatlanders in big SUVs with all seasons around...:x


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## riverc0il (Oct 13, 2008)

Geoff said:


> Any tire designed to give you black ice performance is going to feel like you have four gum erasers out there for tires.  If you are optimizing for black ice, you give up handling.


Of course. My point was that I gave up too much performance which can be a dangerous compromise in the other direction and that other snows that I have driven had a better compromise for my driving style. Everyone needs to pick a tire that matches their needs and driving style. I don't need the ultimate in black ice performance but the tire is probably pretty good for those that do need that performance. Snow performance is more my concern.


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## billski (Oct 13, 2008)

*over-nervous at winter driving.*



air0rmc said:


> Tires are four of the most important components on your car,and can have a dramatic affect on safety and driver confidence.



My wife struggles with winter driving.  I don't think she'll ever master it.  She has a front wheel drive Sienna minivan with abs and "traction control".    She complained about the handling in wet (non-winter) weather, so I found the best rain rated tires I could get.  She says it's "better" but not perfect, whatever that means.  
So she complained about traction in the Metro-Boston snow, and I bought her four WS-60s.  She said it was "better" but again, not perfect, with no more substantiation other than that she still "slides around sometime".  She wishes she had All wheel drive.  

Last winter, I was driving the family, went around the snowy corner a wee bit too fast and slid a wee bit (maybe a couple inches) on the WD60s.  But we were all in control, never came close to hitting anybody or anything or wiping out.  It was a pretty lame slide for about a second or two. and so the conversation goes: "are you sliding?  just a little bit.  then slow down.  you're going too fast. But that's part of driving in the snow, it' happens sometimes.  I don't care, slow down.  it's dangerous."    She also dosn't grasp the notion that sometimes you have to slightly accelerate to get more traction.

I usually drive pretty conservatively and have always driven in gobs of snow.  I knew it might happen, it sometimes does, but I'm always in control and always prepared to handle these things..  I tried to explain that sometimes it just happens, it's a part of winter driving.  I think she's just very fearful of any sliding at all, no matter how minute.  I think part of it is that she likes to be in total control; Sometimes you're not, you just have to figure out how to deal with it.

At this point, I think it's more the driver than the equipment, just like skis.  I think she is over-nervous.  I am unconvinced that all wheel drive would really make that experience any better.  She's a predominantly suburban jungle driver.  (I drive when we go up north.)  Thoughts?


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## hammer (Oct 13, 2008)

billski said:


> My wife struggles with winter driving.  I don't think she'll ever master it.  She has a front wheel drive Sienna minivan with abs and "traction control".    She complained about the handling in wet (non-winter) weather, so I found the best rain rated tires I could get.  She says it's "better" but not perfect, whatever that means.
> So she complained about traction in the Metro-Boston snow, and I bought her four WS-60s.  She said it was "better" but again, not perfect, with no more substantiation other than that she still "slides around sometime".  She wishes she had All wheel drive.
> 
> Last winter, I was driving the family, went around the snowy corner a wee bit too fast and slid a wee bit (maybe a couple inches) on the WD60s.  But we were all in control, never came close to hitting anybody or anything or wiping out.  It was a pretty lame slide for about a second or two. and so the conversation goes: "are you sliding?  just a little bit.  then slow down.  you're going too fast. But that's part of driving in the snow, it' happens sometimes.  I don't care, slow down.  it's dangerous."    She also dosn't grasp the notion that sometimes you have to slightly accelerate to get more traction.
> ...


If your wife doesn't want to drive to the point of slippage then AWD will not do anything IMO...only time I really notice the AWD kick in on my Subaru is when the front wheels lose traction.

Does the minivan handle well with the snow tires?  I always wonder who mini-vans handle the snow...I saw one lose it on Rt. 3 SB last winter, and the resulting spin-out in the median made me dizzy.


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## thinnmann (Oct 13, 2008)

hammer said:


> ....Does the minivan handle well with the snow tires?  I always wonder who mini-vans handle the snow...I saw one lose it on Rt. 3 SB last winter, and the resulting spin-out in the median made me dizzy.



Back to the beginning post of this thread - Thinnmann has been minivanning snowcountry since breeding 15 years ago.  With snow tires on front and decent all-weathers in back, I am usually passing the shorter-wheelbase SUV's with my full size Town & Country on the NY Thruway when heading up in snow.  I can't remember ever losing rear end traction on any snow or rain compromised roadway with this configuration.  I guess I drive fairly carefully in those conditions.  Rear end skids cause the real problems on the road - have read your best tires should be on the rear of your vehicle for this very reason.  Traction trouble comes when I have to go up a frozen slanted driveway a few times per year.

For me, this validates the value of tires over AWD, as many posters have noted.

Check me on this, AZers: I notice in Colorado, just about every ski resort town's taxi service uses FWD Chrysler minivans.


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## Geoff (Oct 13, 2008)

thinnmann said:


> Back to the beginning post of this thread - Thinnmann has been minivanning snowcountry since breeding 15 years ago.  *With snow tires on front and decent all-weathers in back*, I am usually passing the shorter-wheelbase SUV's with my full size Town & Country on the NY Thruway when heading up in snow.  I can't remember ever losing rear end traction on any snow or rain compromised roadway with this configuration.  I guess I drive fairly carefully in those conditions.  Rear end skids cause the real problems on the road - have read your best tires should be on the rear of your vehicle for this very reason.  Traction trouble comes when I have to go up a frozen slanted driveway a few times per year.
> 
> For me, this validates the value of tires over AWD, as many posters have noted.
> 
> Check me on this, AZers: I notice in Colorado, just about every ski resort town's taxi service uses FWD Chrysler minivans.




Never tried that.  I thought that if you run snows on the front and regular tires on the rear, the rear end wants to cut loose when you brake.  Is that just propaganda from the tire dealers to sell you a set of four?

I guess that if you completely suck as a winter driver, you should own an AWD car with good snow tires.  A competent snow driver can get around just fine in a RWD car and summer tires with the usual caveats about living on a steep hill or having a really crappy plowing service for your driveway.


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## bobbutts (Oct 13, 2008)

Skills and experience #1, if you don't adjust your driving for the snow and know what to do with a sliding car you're in trouble.
after that it's all about the tires
studs rule if all you care about is traction 
blizzaks or similar dedicated snow tires are good (what I use)
everything else is a pretty big compromise.
awd is great for starting and controling slides, but not much help with bad tires and/or driver


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## andrec10 (Oct 13, 2008)

Using different types of tires like that is VERY DANGEROUS! The all-seasons stick to the road differently and will cause you to spin out even with Stability control. It is not worth saving a few bucks to put yourself at this risk.


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## thinnmann (Oct 13, 2008)

Geoff said:


> Never tried that.  I thought that if you run snows on the front and regular tires on the rear, the rear end wants to cut loose when you brake.  Is that just propaganda from the tire dealers to sell you a set of four?...





andrec10 said:


> Using different types of tires like that is VERY DANGEROUS! The all-seasons stick to the road differently and will cause you to spin out even with Stability control. It is not worth saving a few bucks to put yourself at this risk.



I questioned that config also - snows on front and all weathers on back as recently as last November.  My tire guy says he has been doing that for years on his own cars without a prob.  I personally have had no prob so far.  Perhaps long wheelbase, traction control + ABS helps the situation.  And I come from a long line of Italian rally car drivers....

Yea - everywhere anyone is gonna research on the Internet says to put four on.  Maybe I just have been lucky.  If I don't buy a Subie I will get two more snow tires, OK?


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## Glenn (Oct 13, 2008)

ccskier said:


> Bought the wife a big gas guzzling Ford Expedition today, comfort and the big feel for safety outweighs the econmical issue.



Cool! Post some pics of the new ride!


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## wa-loaf (Oct 13, 2008)

thinnmann said:


> I questioned that config also - snows on front and all weathers on back as recently as last November.  My tire guy says he has been doing that for years on his own cars without a prob.  I personally have had no prob so far.  Perhaps long wheelbase, traction control + ABS helps the situation.  And I come from a long line of Italian rally car drivers....
> 
> Yea - everywhere anyone is gonna research on the Internet says to put four on.  Maybe I just have been lucky.  If I don't buy a Subie I will get two more snow tires, OK?




Back when I was driving POS cars (usually old golfs and jettas) I always cheaped out and put just snows on the front. Never had an issue with the back slipping out.


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## Glenn (Oct 13, 2008)

wa-loaf said:


> Back when I was driving POS cars (usually old golfs and jettas) I always cheaped out and put just snows on the front. Never had an issue with the back slipping out.



You weren't pulling the e-brake hard enough. :grin:  

Used to love hitting unplowed parkinglots in my old Jetta.


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## wa-loaf (Oct 13, 2008)

Glenn said:


> You weren't pulling the e-brake hard enough. :grin:
> 
> Used to love hitting unplowed parkinglots in my old Jetta.



Edit: the rear never slipped out unintentionally. :beer:


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## air0rmc (Oct 14, 2008)

thinnmann said:


> Back to the beginning post of this thread - Thinnmann has been minivanning snowcountry since breeding 15 years ago.  With snow tires on front and decent all-weathers in back, I am usually passing the shorter-wheelbase SUV's with my full size Town & Country on the NY Thruway when heading up in snow.  I can't remember ever losing rear end traction on any snow or rain compromised roadway with this configuration.  I guess I drive fairly carefully in those conditions.  Rear end skids cause the real problems on the road - have read your best tires should be on the rear of your vehicle for this very reason.  Traction trouble comes when I have to go up a frozen slanted driveway a few times per year.
> 
> For me, this validates the value of tires over AWD, as many posters have noted.
> 
> Check me on this, AZers: I notice in Colorado, just about every ski resort town's taxi service uses FWD Chrysler minivans.



Studless compound snows or studded snows on the front only can be a dangerous combo especialy in slush.More importantly it will very negatively impact the performance of safety features like EBFD,ESP and even affects ABS.It will impact ESP and EBFD so much that they could be rendered pretty much useless on certain surfaces.Traveling at winter highway speed on snow and just small patches of slush your rear tires will be behaving differently and the next thing you know your in a yaw with little chance of recovery.Bumper to bumper at even speeds as low as 45mph on 87,91 or the thruway or any road could ruin your day......I would spring for 2 more tires, plus seasonal changing is more uniform (summer tires and winter tires wear evenly and are purchased in sets of 4 wich translates into $$.$$).This is a good safe rule of thumb.An AWD car in all but a fiew areas of the North East will be fine with high performance all season's.Dedicated snows are a waste unless 85% or better travel on snow,slush and ice all winter.FWD will be fine in 60% of the North East w/high perf all seasons.Dedicated snows on FWD are awsome infact comparable to  AWD w/all seasons mabe even a little better traction and breaking wise but when the road clears up they are noisy and very unpredictable at highway speed and unless high end not rated for the speeds we all like to travel.This is all ofcoarse just my opinion but is what i have observed over 15 yrs of 35-45k a year.Traveling these roads spending sometimes around 1000.00 annualy on tires for two cars.I wish I could Ski like I could drive....


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## 2Planker (Oct 15, 2008)

Audi  S4  w/  Blizzak's  all round, and a Thule box


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Oct 15, 2008)

2Planker said:


> Audi  S4  w/  Blizzak's  all round, and a Thule box



you have reached Baller status..


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## air0rmc (Oct 15, 2008)

2Planker said:


> Audi  S4  w/  Blizzak's  all round, and a Thule box



That is a sweet setup...! How does it ride with the blizzaks ? Are they ws-60's ? What size are you using


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## WJenness (Oct 15, 2008)

2Planker said:


> Audi  S4  w/  Blizzak's  all round, and a Thule box



^My next car.

Which version S4 do you have? B5? B6? B7?

I'm hoping to get the B8 when they drop next year. We'll see.

-w


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## AdironRider (Oct 15, 2008)

To bad Audis are just more expensive versions of VW crap, meaning serious maintenance costs come 70-80k and up. 

Honestly, theres nothing better for a ski car than an American made SUV or Truck for several reasons. 

1) They're big, comfy, and roomy. America's love affair with the automobile and large proportions caters nicely to the ski crowd. Sure an Outback works great with 2 or 3 people and full gear on a day trip, but start packing in stuff for a full weekend and another person or two and you need at least a box to make the trip bearable. The Foresters are pretty good in terms of interior room, but my girls version (previous generation) only gets 27 on the highway without a box, put the box on and its down to 24. Thats only 2 mpg better than my Jeep Grand Cherokee which gets 22 is better off road, more comfortable, cheaper to maintain, and has more ground clearance meaning I can get through deeper snow. 

2) They're rediculously cheap right now. Walk into any Chevy, Ford, or Jeep dealer and they're practically paying you to take an SUV or truck off the lot. The Chevy dealership here in Jackson has brand new Siverado ZR1's going for 21k right now (V8 power, utility, and 20 mpg). Compare that to a comparable Forester at 26-27k that only gets 4mpg better here in ski country. Ill tell you, that V8 comes in mighty handy at elevation on a 17 mile 9% grade like the passes here can throw at you. The 4 bangers in Subies just dont have the juice to make it up those kind of grades at 9000 feet without serious laboring. Say you drive 15k per year, at 3.50 a gallon you're spending $2625 in gas to drive the truck vs. $2187.50 to drive the Forrester. Thats only a 437.50 difference a year, meaning it will take over ten years for you to see the difference in up front cost to purchase the Forrester over the truck, not to mention that the truck will be cheaper to maintain due to it being domestic. Both cars are reliable to begin with, so Ill consider that a push. 

3) There is something to be said for utility. A SUV or truck can tow a boat, get through deeper snow due to higher ground clearance, and carry a higher payload. Here in Jackson I tow my drift boat around and over the pass, I haul 2 cords of wood around. I can pack 4 dudes and all their gear inside my Jeep without needing to use a roof rack ... comfortably. 5 comfortably with a rack just for the boards, only costing me 1.5 mpg compared to 3-4 for a Thule box like you would with a Subaru, or other small car. Not to mention a full size SUV or truck is built on a heavy duty truck frame, meaning it can take more punishment without concern. Ive blasted my Jeep through 2 foot ice snowbanks with hardly a shudder, a feat that would send my girls Forrester to the body shop in no time. 

For these reasons I will gladly pay an extra 500 bucks a year in gas for all that a full size truck or SUV gives me. But then again, here in Jackson I use them for what theyre intended for every day in the winter, and several times a week in the summer. If you're a single guy who mostly commutes to the city for work on the east coast with the occaisional (1 time a week in the winter) ski trip, get a civic with snows. But if you have a family, or live in the mtns full time, or put the rig to work, its stupid to think you dont _need_ 4x4.


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## campgottagopee (Oct 15, 2008)

AdironRider said:


> To bad Audis are just more expensive versions of VW crap, meaning serious maintenance costs come 70-80k and up.
> 
> Honestly, theres nothing better for a ski car than an American made SUV or Truck for several reasons.
> 
> ...



Please look at this:

http://www.edmunds.com/apps/nvc/edm...101081444&maxvehicles=5&refid=&op=3&tab=specs


Pay special attention to ground clearance, interior room, leg room should room even cargo room. I could go on and on about totla cost of ownership, but that will have to be another time when I have some time:wink:


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Oct 15, 2008)

I'd rather have a Suburu of any kind than a Jeep Grand Cherokee..


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## o3jeff (Oct 15, 2008)

If you are like me and don't hold onto a car for more than a couple years, your gonna want to look at the resale values which will leave a lot of domestic cars out.


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## AdironRider (Oct 15, 2008)

I dont need to go to Edmunds.com to know the truth. I own a Jeep Grand Cherokee, and drive a 2008 silverado 2500HD all summer for work, and my girlfriend of 5 years owns a Subaru Forrester. Ive lived and worked with all of these rigs extensively and know their benefits and limitations. The forrester is a good car, but gets 24 mpg in the real world and I cannot fit as much stuff in it as I can in my Jeep regardless of what they say the interior room is. I know Ive blasted through 2 foot snowbanks in my Jeep that the Forrester wouldnt get through, and Ive made it down 12" plus roads without a problem in the Jeep to get to my girls Subaru that was stuck. Need more real world experience? Numbers on a website dont tell anywhere near the whole story.

Ill conceed resale values arent as high, but I drive my cars till theyre worth no more than a grand anyway, so its a moot point to me. But if you are the type who needs the newest and best every 3-5 years or so, foreign cars do have better resale values.


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## campgottagopee (Oct 15, 2008)

AdironRider said:


> I dont need to go to Edmunds.com to know the truth. I own a Jeep Grand Cherokee, and drive a 2008 silverado 2500HD all summer for work, and my girlfriend of 5 years owns a Subaru Forrester. Ive lived and worked with all of these rigs extensively and know their benefits and limitations. The forrester is a good car, but gets 24 mpg in the real world and I cannot fit as much stuff in it as I can in my Jeep regardless of what they say the interior room is. I know Ive blasted through 2 foot snowbanks in my Jeep that the Forrester wouldnt get through, and Ive made it down 12" plus roads without a problem in the Jeep to get to my girls Subaru that was stuck. Need more real world experience? Numbers on a website dont tell anywhere near the whole story.
> 
> Ill conceed resale values arent as high, but I drive my cars till theyre worth no more than a grand anyway, so its a moot point to me. But if you are the type who needs the newest and best every 3-5 years or so, foreign cars do have better resale values.



You were touting about ground clearance and interior room----truth=blinders??? Numbers don't lie, they tell the truth. I provided Edmunds for nuetral party info.


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## SKIQUATTRO (Oct 15, 2008)

Been driving Audis for over 15 years and never had an issue, my buddy has had his Ford Expedtion in the shop more than its been on the road...not to say Audis never have issues, or there arent Fords that have never been in the shop....all false stereotypes...

I love my Audi and will never give up the Quattro, german engineering and attention to detail.  I've blown by SUV's heading north with my Quattro and Conti Extremes (All Seasons)...bottom line..it comes down to the driver using his/her head and knowing how to drive in the conditions......


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## hammer (Oct 15, 2008)

AdironRider said:


> I know Ive blasted through 2 foot snowbanks in my Jeep that the Forrester wouldnt get through


FWIW, with my Subaru Outback I usually enjoy blasting through the large snowbanks that plows can leave behind cars in the parking lot where I work.  Good thing my son doesn't see me doing it...don't want him to get any ideas when he starts driving. :wink:


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Oct 15, 2008)

My Impreza is great in more than a foot of snow..I freaking love doing donuts in the ski area parking lot before they plow..and I drove up one of the steepest hills in my town where kids were sledding without a problem..awd is just so great..when I lived in Montana I drove a Sentra and I had to get towed 3 times getting stuck in deep snow..


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## Edd (Oct 15, 2008)

Toyota is offering 2.9% on a 5 year loan for most of their lineup, including an AWD Matrix.  That is very good.  Even better deals on shorter loan terms.


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## air0rmc (Oct 15, 2008)

AdironRider said:


> I dont need to go to Edmunds.com to know the truth. I own a Jeep Grand Cherokee, and drive a 2008 silverado 2500HD all summer for work, and my girlfriend of 5 years owns a Subaru Forrester. Ive lived and worked with all of these rigs extensively and know their benefits and limitations. The forrester is a good car, but gets 24 mpg in the real world and I cannot fit as much stuff in it as I can in my Jeep regardless of what they say the interior room is. I know Ive blasted through 2 foot snowbanks in my Jeep that the Forrester wouldnt get through, and Ive made it down 12" plus roads without a problem in the Jeep to get to my girls Subaru that was stuck. Need more real world experience? Numbers on a website dont tell anywhere near the whole story.
> 
> Ill conceed resale values arent as high, but I drive my cars till theyre worth no more than a grand anyway, so its a moot point to me. But if you are the type who needs the newest and best every 3-5 years or so, foreign cars do have better resale values.



Its all about the tires Dude....you can get a WILLY'S stuck in a church parking lot on sunday morning with worn tires.....! And a thousand dollars is all a CHEEP GRAND CHEROKEE is worth after 3-5 years..........!


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## AdironRider (Oct 15, 2008)

Edmunds.com is of no use to me when Im pulling out my girls Forrester at 2am, in Jackson WY, ... in January. And just because the interior volume is more, doesnt mean its usable. Sure maybe if you were filling it with water you could get more, but putting real world boxes, bags, boards, boots and whathave you in there is a different story. I can fit more in the Jeep, its just how it is. Could be the stock tires that were on it true, but thats just more money to invest in an already more expensive to own car as Ive pointed out. I paid way less for it than my girl paid for her Forrester, it hasnt broken down on me, while hers has been in the shop 4 times for a check engine light that they cant seem to find the source for, and can do more in more gnarly terrain than hers can. Sure these are individual comparisons between cars, but over my 2+ years of Jeep ownership and her 4 years with the Forrester, my Jeep has been cheaper to own and run. 

This isnt saying the Forrester is a bad car. Its a question of what you use it for. The Forrester is great if you just need to get to the hill and back. Its a great one for what it is, but for a true die hard ski car in the mtns, my Jeep just does everything better (tackles ruff roads, fits more gear, better in the real deep snow, tows my fishing boat, more comfortable for passengers in the back). Hers is a stick though, which is pretty kick ass.


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## Geoff (Oct 15, 2008)

AdironRider said:


> This isnt saying the Forrester is a bad car. Its a question of what you use it for.



I didn't realize you were dating a lesbian.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Oct 15, 2008)

Geoff said:


> I didn't realize you were dating a lesbian.



ahahahaha


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## campgottagopee (Oct 15, 2008)

AdironRider said:


> Edmunds.com is of no use to me when Im pulling out my girls Forrester at 2am, in Jackson WY, ... in January. And just because the interior volume is more, doesnt mean its usable. Sure maybe if you were filling it with water you could get more, but putting real world boxes, bags, boards, boots and whathave you in there is a different story. I can fit more in the Jeep, its just how it is. Could be the stock tires that were on it true, but thats just more money to invest in an already more expensive to own car as Ive pointed out. I paid way less for it than my girl paid for her Forrester, it hasnt broken down on me, while hers has been in the shop 4 times for a check engine light that they cant seem to find the source for, and can do more in more gnarly terrain than hers can. Sure these are individual comparisons between cars, but over my 2+ years of Jeep ownership and her 4 years with the Forrester, my Jeep has been cheaper to own and run.
> 
> This isnt saying the Forrester is a bad car. Its a question of what you use it for. The Forrester is great if you just need to get to the hill and back. Its a great one for what it is, but for a true die hard ski car in the mtns, my Jeep just does everything better (tackles ruff roads, fits more gear, better in the real deep snow, tows my fishing boat, more comfortable for passengers in the back). Hers is a stick though, which is pretty kick ass.



For the model years you are talking about, you are correct, but I was comparing 09 to 09----Forrester has more ground clearance, more cargo space, and over all cheaper to run. I have drivin side by side comparrisons that have shown me the off road capabilities of these vehicle first hand. Jeeps are cool ifin' that's your thing---only in a jeep, or something like that:grin:


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## campgottagopee (Oct 15, 2008)

geoff said:


> i didn't realize you were dating a lesbian.



dang


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## jimskime (Oct 15, 2008)

I'm on my second Subaru Forester, 26mpg, goes anywhere. I can put two kayaks and 3 bikes and go camping for a couple of weeks.


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## AdironRider (Oct 15, 2008)

campgottagopee said:


> dang




Just chasing every mans dream of a three way.


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## billski (Oct 15, 2008)

AdironRider said:


> 1) They're big, comfy, and roomy.
> 
> 2) They're rediculously cheap right now.  Both cars are reliable to begin with, so Ill consider that a push.
> 
> 3) There is something to be said for utility.



If we all thought the same, there would be about six models of vehicles out there.
1) I don't need big, even with my family of five.  A Toyota Avalon worked fine for 10 years.  My first car was a subaru, 1980 wagon.  I needed more cabin space, but never needed SUV-size.
2) Pay me now or pay me later.  My Avalon is 13 years old, gets 24mpg, has 215K miles and has taken my family on more ski vacations than you can imagine.  We still have it, it's now driven by my 16 and 19YO's.  I've NEVER done anything major to it.  Brakes, exhaust, tires, timing belt.  Domestics never meet the reliability of Jap cars.  Tell me about your 215K SUV.
3) I have no need for utility If I need a truck, I'll rent it from U-haul.  Like once every two years.  I have nothing to tow - I'll rent a boat if I need it, it's simply cheaper than owning and towing it.
a) I'd like to do my part to minimize my impact on the atmosphere and fossil fuels.
b) Full disclosure: I now own an Audi for myself, I'm getting 24mpg.  I've been in the workforce for three decades, I'm spoiling myself before I go senile.:razz:
c) For me , it's not about price and cost, it's about carbon footprint, balanced against my irrational passion for mountain sports.

I respect your choice and your prerogative, I just can't embrace it for myself.  That's why I love the USA - liberty for all.
Enjoy - life is too short.


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## Geoff (Oct 15, 2008)

jimskime said:


> I'm on my second Subaru Forester, 26mpg, goes anywhere. I can put two kayaks and 3 bikes and go camping for a couple of weeks.



This message board is just plain overflowing with lesbians.


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## Geoff (Oct 15, 2008)

billski said:


> If we all thought the same, there would be about six models of vehicles out there.
> 1) I don't need big, even with my family of five.  A Toyota Avalon worked fine for 10 years.  My first car was a subaru, 1980 wagon.  I needed more cabin space, but never needed SUV-size.
> 2) Pay me now or pay me later.  My Avalon is 13 years old, gets 24mpg, has 215K miles and has taken my family on more ski vacations than you can imagine.  We still have it, it's now driven by my 16 and 19YO's.  I've NEVER done anything major to it.  Brakes, exhaust, tires, timing belt.  Domestics never meet the reliability of Jap cars.  Tell me about your 215K SUV.
> 3) I have no need for utility If I need a truck, I'll rent it from U-haul.  Like once every two years.  I have nothing to tow - I'll rent a boat if I need it, it's simply cheaper than owning and towing it.
> ...



If I needed a back seat, I'd take a hard look at an Avalon.  Sure, it's completely uncool and has replaced the Crown Vic as the geriatric car of choice but it's bomb-proof and a comfortable ride.  If you put a receiver hitch on it, you can also pull around a utility trailer and mount a bike rack.  It's really too bad they never made it as a station wagon.


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## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Oct 15, 2008)

My Grandma has a Toyota Avalon..she no longer drives but has a driver and I help out from time to time and it's the perfect driving miss Daisy car..the backseat is huge..she gets drivin around sipping Pinot Grigio..82 year olds don't care about open container laws..lol.


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## deadheadskier (Oct 15, 2008)

My 'ski' car is well now the gf's as I drive a company car, but an 07 Hyundai Sonata.  Not quite as big as an Avalon, more a Camry size, but it gets 28 mpg on the highway with a V6.  So far, two years ownership, 50K miles on it, zero maintenance issues.  It did okay last winter with just all season tires on it.  I will be putting snows on it for this winter and I'm sure I'll get anywhere just fine unless there's over 8 inches of snow on the ground.  If I had a family, a ski rack or roof box would do the trick.  The trunk on it is HUGE, bigger than that in my father's Infinity M35.  The back seat also has plenty of room for someone six three.  It's no rocket ship, but it has a fair amount of balls and is fun to drive.  Throw in the 10 year 100K warranty and it's a heckuva value.

All my life growing up, my father had a Honda Accord.  We would go skiing every weekend, which was always a two to three and a half hour ride from our home in central mass.  There would be two adults and two kids in the car.  Honestly, unless you're carrying more than four passengers including the driver, I really don't see the need in having anything bigger than a mid-size sedan.  Put some snows on it and it's a plenty good enough ski car.  I never recall once getting stuck on the way to the mountain.

4WD and AWD is nice, but it really isn't necessary.


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## gmcunni (Oct 15, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> 4WD and AWD is nice, but it really isn't necessary.



+1. i drove a saab 93 for 8 years. with good snow tires there was nothing that car couldn't get through. I'd drive back roads home from work (30 miles) in snow storms, up and down hills, and pass SUVs stuck on the side of the road.

part of it is driving skill (i'm an excellent driver!) but having a good tires really does help.


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## billski (Oct 15, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> 4WD and AWD is nice, but it really isn't necessary.




it just makes you sleep better when you're driving :-o


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## billski (Oct 15, 2008)

GrilledSteezeSandwich said:


> My Grandma has a Toyota Avalon..she no longer drives but has a driver and I help out from time to time and it's the perfect driving miss Daisy car..the backseat is huge..she gets drivin around sipping Pinot Grigio..82 year olds don't care about open container laws..lol.



I SERIOUSLY considered an Avalon as a follow on car.  They let me take it skiing for a day, it was nice, but a bit too boring.  I traded reliability for a little fun and uniqueness. (and I'm not a gearhead either)  Ah, such is a midlife crisis....  :flag:

I really wish the auto manufacturers would do a better job of accommodating skis inside the cabin (i.e., pass through).


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## faceplant (Oct 15, 2008)

whatve you been out there testdrivin  thinn?


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## deadheadskier (Oct 15, 2008)

billski said:


> I SERIOUSLY considered an Avalon as a follow on car.  They let me take it skiing for a day, it was nice, but a bit too boring.  I traded reliability for a little fun and uniqueness. (and I'm not a gearhead either)  Ah, such is a midlife crisis....  :flag:
> 
> I really wish the auto manufacturers would do a better job of accommodating skis inside the cabin (i.e., pass through).



That really is a great feature in most European cars, I miss that from the Audi I had prior to the Hyundai.  For my purposes, the 60-40 folding seat works, but if I was frequently driving with 4 people, a rack or roof box would be needed.  Actually even with pass through, you'd need that for four skiers.  Only had pass through once and it was struggle to get three sets of skis through, don't think it would work for four.


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## billski (Oct 15, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> That really is a great feature in most European cars, I miss that from the Audi I had prior to the Hyundai.  For my purposes, the 60-40 folding seat works, but if I was frequently driving with 4 people, a rack or roof box would be needed.  Actually even with pass through, you'd need that for four skiers.  Only had pass through once and it was struggle to get three sets of skis through, don't think it would work for four.



true true, I wasn't thinking about that, i was thinking about seating 4 and still having a pass through.  I compromised with the split seat.

 I often bring two pair of skis for myself, so things just got more complicated.  I'd rather not have a rack/box anyway.  Then again, the older I get, the uglier I get, the more spontaneous I get, the less likely it is I'd have a bunch.  When the going gets tough, I borrow my wife's minivan, we brought five people boarding and skiing, and boat load of equipment.  When the whole family goes skiing, we take the van.  It's kind of a fair compromise.  Me with smaller vehicle for my powder days, the larger van is used 6 days of school activities loaded with kids.  No wasted space in our cars.

Since my daughter stopped playing hockey it got easier to get the van.  I could never bring more than 2 hockey players home in the Avalon.  The bags are as big as the kids.  :grin:

I don't recall the Avalon having any accommodation for things of length.  I don't recall a fold down or a pass through, but it could be the onset of senility....


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## deadheadskier (Oct 15, 2008)

.....well, I'll support my kids someday in a number of endeavors, but not hockey.  Screw getting up at 5AM on a Saturday for an hour of ice time and carting around smelly hockey bags :lol:  It's imperative that I get them on the snow and addicted prior to even knowing what hockey is :lol:


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## billski (Oct 16, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> .....well, I'll support my kids someday in a number of endeavors, but not hockey.  Screw getting up at 5AM on a Saturday for an hour of ice time and carting around smelly hockey bags :lol:  It's imperative that I get them on the snow and addicted prior to even knowing what hockey is :lol:



You went to the wrong school!  My daughter's games and practice are 3-6pm Mon-Friday.  If you want to go ga-ga serious, or have no priority, then you get the weird times.  Family skiing on the weekends!


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## 2Planker (Oct 16, 2008)

air0rmc said:


> That is a sweet setup...! How does it ride with the blizzaks ? Are they ws-60's ? What size are you using





 I've driven Audi's for 10+ years  (S6/A4/A6) - Love 'em, and owe my life to 'em  when I was hit head on at 45mph, by a 16 year old who crossed into my lane.....

  Never had any major repairs, and now that all scheduled service is covered for the warranty period - I'll gladly keep them until 100,000 miles them trade for another.

   The Blizzaks  (ws-60) go on in late Nov.,  and come off in mid April - Love those things.  We drive the last 40-50 miles on a remote country "highway" and I can go through 6"+ of unplowed snow no problem @ 45-50mph.  See  many SUV's and other rides in the ditch, and we barely notice that the roads are slick...

    Wifey just ditched the Jeep for an '06 A4 Quattro  2.0T  6spd -- and it get's 35mpg on the interstate.  You can say what you want about Audi's being overpriced VW's but the interior is MUCH nicer, and the dealership truly takes care of the customer !  As long as I'm  driving the 350 miles to/from SR every weekend I will always drive an Audi.


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## Philpug (Oct 16, 2008)

The Forester was just named MotorTrend's SUV of the year. Before the rolling of eyes, MT has gotten much better as a rag than on previous years, passing CD as quality of reviews.


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## billski (Oct 16, 2008)

2Planker said:


> I I'll gladly keep them until 100,000 miles them trade for another.



Why do you get rid of them when they are so young?  Seriously.


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## WJenness (Oct 16, 2008)

billski said:


> Why do you get rid of them when they are so young?  Seriously.



There's something to be said for new toys.

-w


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## Glenn (Oct 16, 2008)

2Planker said:


> I've driven Audi's for 10+ years  (S6/A4/A6) - Love 'em, and owe my life to 'em  when I was hit head on at 45mph, by a 16 year old who crossed into my lane.....
> 
> Never had any major repairs, and now that all scheduled service is covered for the warranty period - I'll gladly keep them until 100,000 miles them trade for another.
> 
> ...



We have an 02 A6 3.0. It's very very solid car. We've had it for two years and it's been trouble free. All I've done are oil changes, new tires and the 40k service. 

I don't go to the local Audi dealer for service...unless it's a recall or a key program. I had it in for recall and the guy calls me and says I need front brakes in a few thousand miles. It didn't since we've only put about 14k on the car over the last two years...and new brakes went on when we bought it. 

The other vehicle is an 03 Grand Cherokee. It hasn't been as trouble free, but nothing I can't fix myself. Plus, it was about 1/2 of what the A6 cost. We take the Jeep skiing. It doesn't really phase me to fold down the seats and throw a bunch of snowy, wet ski gear back there. For a vehicle with two sold Dana axles, it's pretty comfortable to drive around in. I used to own a lowered VW with a nice Techtonics exhaust. I swore I'd never drive anything bigger. I now "never say never". :razz:


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## 2Planker (Oct 16, 2008)

billski said:


> Why do you get rid of them when they are so young?  Seriously.



  First:  I never buy "New"  usually "Pre-Owned Audi Certified"   Company gives an allowance for a "Company Car" every 4 years, and I can use that towards the  purchase of my choice....

I average only 15.000/year on the companies car, and can easily find something still under factory warranty for a year or two, and then get 2 more years out of the Certified pre-owned warranty once the factory one expires.  End result is that it costs the company nothing in maintenance.  The last few have been traded at  6-7 years w/ 120.000 miles on them...


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## madskier6 (Oct 16, 2008)

deadheadskier said:


> .....well, I'll support my kids someday in a number of endeavors, but not hockey.  Screw getting up at 5AM on a Saturday for an hour of ice time and carting around smelly hockey bags :lol:  It's imperative that I get them on the snow and addicted prior to even knowing what hockey is :lol:



Totally agree with this.  I have 4 children (3 boys) & there was no way I was getting them into hockey.  Way too much of a time commitment plus it cuts into ski season.  I've encouraged them to participate in whatever sports they're interested in but said no to hockey.  There were a few complaints at first but haven't heard a wimper about playing hockey in years.  Now that they're into skiing & see how much time their friends put in that play hockey, they're glad they don't play.

Sounds like billski lucked out with his daughter playing hockey & the time commitment but I think that's the exception.  Generally, it's much more demanding.  One of my son's friends had to travel to Pennsylvania (4 plus hour drive) at 5:00 in the morning on the day after Christmas to play in a hockey tournament.  Forget about that!!  I'd do that to go skiing but that's a different issue.  At least I get to participate in skiing - not just sit in the stands & watch.


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## bvibert (Oct 16, 2008)

madskier6 said:


> One of my son's friends had to travel to Pennsylvania (4 plus hour drive) at 5:00 in the morning on the day after Christmas to play in a hockey tournament.  Forget about that!!  I'd do that to go skiing but that's a different issue.



You'd drive 4+ hours to PA the day after Christmas to go skiing?  You really are hard core. 8)

Wouldn't VT be closer though?


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## thinnmann (Oct 16, 2008)

faceplant said:


> whatve you been out there testdrivin  thinn?



No time to test drive yet - been too busy reading this thread~!


But I almost test drove a used Subaru Forester last week - but someone clued me in with some probs the vehicle had when they ran the vin...........


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## air0rmc (Oct 16, 2008)

2Planker said:


> I've driven Audi's for 10+ years  (S6/A4/A6) - Love 'em, and owe my life to 'em  when I was hit head on at 45mph, by a 16 year old who crossed into my lane.....
> 
> Never had any major repairs, and now that all scheduled service is covered for the warranty period - I'll gladly keep them until 100,000 miles them trade for another.
> 
> ...



2plank I'll always love Audi's and VW.My wife was hit head-on by a person test driving a brand new f-150 that ran a light.My wife was making a left with my 4yr old son and 2yr old daughter in her 2000 A6 Avant.Long story short no injuries no bags because she was hit on rh corner I coud not get a total loss from adjuster so the bill 13900.00 my father drove the car to the shop and the f-150 left on a roll-off.Then that same year 2 months later I was rear-ended at a dead stop on I-95 north 10 mi south of philly airport in my brand new jetta 1.8 turbo auto w/tip by a 1984 impala traveling at highway speed .The impact broke my seatback and I was able to get out of the car and climb over a barrier because people are F$%#&ing crazy down there.That car was total loss w/2700mi on it I had only had it 1 month.I then baght an 01 A4 1.8  auto w/27k at adessa.I drove that weekly from my home just south of utica ny to philly airport after 3 years and almost 100k later I had to ditch it with the usual Audi issue's.No warranty from 50k on and I had okay luck the trick is to ditch these cars before 100k I think.Both my parents have driven Audi's for years.07 A8 and 04 A6 now and have had okay luck also ,even bringing used cars to the audi dealer we were treated great.Untortunately as the kids got involvled with more activities and we started camping more we thought we needed a third row and/or more space so now we have a ford freestyle.My wife went into shock when the difference in interior design and quality set in but it is cavernous.Let me Know how that thing rides with those blizzaks on it.that exotic suspension is finnicky about tires.


----------



## GrilledSteezeSandwich (Oct 19, 2008)

I'm loving my 06 Impreza..I've been leasing it for 3 years and I'm taking the option to buy in a few days..it only has 44,000 miles so it's just getting started for a Suburu..I just got new brake pads and new tires which aren't snow tires but really good all season tires..much better than the Potenzas I had before..Yokasomething..lol..and they were buy 3, get one free..


----------



## bvibert (Oct 20, 2008)

This thread inspired me to finally get off my ass and buy some snow tires for my FWD Passat.  Now I won't have to borrow my wife's 4WD SUV to get to the slopes during snow storms as much. 

I'm officially ready for winter! :beer:


----------



## Glenn (Oct 20, 2008)

Cool. What tires did you end up with?


----------



## bvibert (Oct 20, 2008)

Glenn said:


> Cool. What tires did you end up with?



Some barely used Firestone something or others.  The price was decent and the guy lived 10 minutes from my house, couldn't pass it up...


----------



## air0rmc (Oct 20, 2008)

bvibert said:


> This thread inspired me to finally get off my ass and buy some snow tires for my FWD Passat.  Now I won't have to borrow my wife's 4WD SUV to get to the slopes during snow storms as much.
> 
> I'm officially ready for winter! :beer:



Nice....! Are u running with all 4 or just fronts ? Also what year is your passat ?


----------



## bvibert (Oct 20, 2008)

air0rmc said:


> Nice....! Are u running with all 4 or just fronts ? Also what year is your passat ?



All 4, It's a 2001 Wagon.


----------



## Glenn (Oct 20, 2008)

bvibert said:


> Some barely used Firestone something or others.  The price was decent and the guy lived 10 minutes from my house, couldn't pass it up...



Can't beat that! I bet you'll notice a good difference with 4 snows.


----------



## Terry (Oct 21, 2008)

billski said:


> I SERIOUSLY considered an Avalon as a follow on car.  They let me take it skiing for a day, it was nice, but a bit too boring.  I traded reliability for a little fun and uniqueness. (and I'm not a gearhead either)  Ah, such is a midlife crisis....  :flag:
> 
> I really wish the auto manufacturers would do a better job of accommodating skis inside the cabin (i.e., pass through).


Our 02 honda accord has a pass through rear seat. That was one of the things that sold me on the car. We had a dodge caravan before and we can put just about as much stuff in the honda and be more comfortable.


----------



## andrec10 (Oct 21, 2008)

Terry said:


> Our 02 honda accord has a pass through rear seat. That was one of the things that sold me on the car. We had a dodge caravan before and we can put just about as much stuff in the honda and be more comfortable.



And be more reliable too. My company car is a 2008 Dodge Caravan. 2 months old and the check engine light went on yesterday...:smash:


----------



## tekweezle (Oct 21, 2008)

i am thinking about replacing the stock Yokohama Geolanders on my Forester.  I only have about 27000 miles on them but they look like they are wearing out quicker than i expected.  I think the Geolander is just a soft, mushy, dry pavement tire.

any recommendations for an all season tire?


----------



## Glenn (Oct 21, 2008)

tekweezle said:


> i am thinking about replacing the stock Yokohama Geolanders on my Forester.  I only have about 27000 miles on them but they look like they are wearing out quicker than i expected.  I think the Geolander is just a soft, mushy, dry pavement tire.
> 
> any recommendations for an all season tire?



I like reading the reviews on tirerack.com and looking at the overall rating of the tire. 

We just put a set of Yokohama Avid T4's on our A6. I'm looking forward to seeing how they do in the snow.


----------



## air0rmc (Oct 22, 2008)

tekweezle said:


> i am thinking about replacing the stock Yokohama Geolanders on my Forester.  I only have about 27000 miles on them but they look like they are wearing out quicker than i expected.  I think the Geolander is just a soft, mushy, dry pavement tire.
> 
> any recommendations for an all season tire?


What area of the North East do u live in...? And what type of rd do u travel and mileage.....?


----------



## 2Planker (Oct 22, 2008)

Depends on how much driving you actually do in/on snowy roads.  Even w/ AWD ( Audi Quattro)  we use 2 sets of rims + tires.  That cars gets more miles put on it in the winter 'cause it's our dedicated ski ride.  Every weekend it logs 400+ miles from Boston to Sunday River.

Pirelli's  which came on it OEM  from mid April to mid November.  Then the Blizzak WS-60 go on for 10,000+ miles during ski season.  I dropped down from the stock 235/45/17 to 215/55/16 for the winter.  Wideer dedicated snows tend to float when you're on 4"= of unplowed untreated roads at 50+mph.   Went to Tire Rack and picked up a set of 16" steel rims w/ some plastic hub caps - Not too pretty, but easy to maintain - they don't ice up and get unbalanced at highway speeds as the stockers did, plus changing things over 2 times/year only costs $20 rather than $100 for re-mounting + balancing.


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## Philpug (Oct 22, 2008)

tekweezle said:


> i am thinking about replacing the stock Yokohama Geolanders on my Forester.  I only have about 27000 miles on them but they look like they are wearing out quicker than i expected.  I think the Geolander is just a soft, mushy, dry pavement tire.
> 
> any recommendations for an all season tire?



All season tires are the worst of both worlds, they do everything equally poorly. Keep an eye on Craigslist for Snowtire/wheel combos. You need a 5x100 lug pattern.


----------



## tekweezle (Oct 22, 2008)

i'm in NYC and most of my driving is of the weekend, highway, access road variety.  

just looking for recommendations better than than the stock tires.


----------



## Geoff (Oct 22, 2008)

tekweezle said:


> i am thinking about replacing the stock Yokohama Geolanders on my Forester.  I only have about 27000 miles on them but they look like they are wearing out quicker than i expected.  I think the Geolander is just a soft, mushy, dry pavement tire.
> 
> any recommendations for an all season tire?



If you ski most weekends, the Nokian WR.  It's an all season tire but it has a 'severe service' emblem on the sidewall (a snowflake and a mountain) so it's also a snow tire.  It has a lot of siping so it also performs pretty well on black ice.  I know people who leave them on all year and get 50,000 miles out of them.  YMMV.

http://www.nokiantires.com/tyre?id=11899&group=1.01&name=Nokian+WRG2

Edited:
In metro-NYC, the STS Tire chain carries Nokian.


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## gmcunni (Oct 22, 2008)

tekweezle said:


> just looking for recommendations better than than the stock tires.



my 2 cents..

Blizzak WS-60  on steel rims. swap them on and off at beginning and end of ski season.  i had these on a fwd saab 93 and they were excellent in all types of winter conditions.  if your car normally has 16 inch summer tires, go with 15 inch winter wheels with "taller" sidewall + narrower tread tires. Cuts through the snow much better, less surface area to slide on.  Get 4 tires, not just 2 for the drive wheels, it makes a huge difference.

got mine @ tirerack.com. they  arrived mounted, balanced and ready to go.


----------



## air0rmc (Oct 22, 2008)

Geoff said:


> If you ski most weekends, the Nokian WR.  It's an all season tire but it has a 'severe service' emblem on the sidewall (a snowflake and a mountain) so it's also a snow tire.  It has a lot of siping so it also performs pretty well on black ice.  I know people who leave them on all year and get 50,000 miles out of them.  YMMV.
> 
> http://www.nokiantires.com/tyre?id=11899&group=1.01&name=Nokian+WRG2
> 
> ...


NOKIAN...........!
if u can find a set of wr's buy them they have been replaced by the wrg2.The wr will be at a discount I would assume.If u cannot find wr's or the price is the same for wr or wrg2 the wrg2 is an improvement in slush ice perf and ice braking.The wr was the best tire I have ever owned.They would best fit your situation plus you can leave them on and just rotate them and you will get good perf for atleast 40 - 50k.Check out the website...


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## Edd (Oct 22, 2008)

gmcunni said:


> Get 4 tires, not just 2 for the drive wheels, it makes a huge difference.



I've never had snow tires.  Can anyone explain why 4 snow tires would provide more traction than 2 on a 2WD car?  On the non-drive wheels I'm not clear on how it makes a difference.


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## bvibert (Oct 22, 2008)

Edd said:


> I've never had snow tires.  Can anyone explain why 4 snow tires would provide more traction than 2 on a 2WD car?  On the non-drive wheels I'm not clear on how it makes a difference.



If you have snows only on your front (drive) wheels then you're more likely to have the rear end come around during cornering or stopping since they'll have less traction.  There's more to traction than just getting the car moving.


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## 2Planker (Oct 26, 2008)

You absolutely need to have the same rubber on all 4 wheels.  Especially if you have ABS or traction control....


----------



## Geoff (Oct 26, 2008)

Edd said:


> I've never had snow tires.  Can anyone explain why 4 snow tires would provide more traction than 2 on a 2WD car?  On the non-drive wheels I'm not clear on how it makes a difference.



It's not traction, it's how the car performs when braking.


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## 2Planker (Oct 26, 2008)

Geoff said:


> It's not traction, it's how the car performs when braking.



Exactly !  Thus my point about the computerized systems such as ABS and traction control.

I work w/ a "chapskate"  who only bought 2 snow tires for his FWD car.  He hit brakes hard on an icy corner, and the rear end swung out and passed him, by then it was too late.  He went backwards into the ditch at 50mph, and flipped the car over, killing his wife....  A tragedy for sure that could possibly have been avoided if he'd spent the extra $250...


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## Philpug (Oct 26, 2008)

Do you have 2 braking wheels on the car or 4? 

Walk in the snow with one dress shoe (50% less) and one snow shoe, what happens?


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## muleski (Oct 26, 2008)

Our 21 year old son is D1 racer, and an "enthusiastic" driver. He, and we, run four snows{he runs studded snows} on all of our cars in the winter{other than on a Landcruiser, which has Blizzaks}. I've overheard some of his conversations on the subject. His headline about tires, be they summer tires, snows, track tires, etc, is: "there are FOUR things that stand between your 4000 lbs and the pavement, YOUR TIRES. DON'T be stupid and cheap out on them."  

You can buy a very good set of snows for a very reasonable cost. Hankook, for example makes a direct copy of a Nokian RSI. I have the RSI's on my car, and decided to try a set of Hankooks on our daughter's H6 Outback. Seems like a heck of a tire, for well under $400 mounted and balanced for a set of four. 

The tires help you brake, accelerate smoothly, steer, and in general keep your car on the road without making you exhausted and on edge. A huge part of that is the softer rubber compound, and siping that makes them so good on ice and hardpack. Those "all season" tires" with the 60,000 mile guarantee just were not designed to perform on snow. I would not put a car on the road in New England without four snows. That may be overkill, but I have never regretted it.


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## thinnmann (Oct 27, 2008)

Wow - this thread has unexpectedly maintained a lot of traction in this forum


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## bobbutts (Oct 27, 2008)

tekweezle said:


> i am thinking about replacing the stock Yokohama Geolanders on my Forester.  I only have about 27000 miles on them but they look like they are wearing out quicker than i expected.  I think the Geolander is just a soft, mushy, dry pavement tire.
> 
> any recommendations for an all season tire?



*Vehicle:*                                                                                                            2005 SUBARU FORESTER 2.5 XT  BASE MODEL 

*Item Description* *Availability* *Qty.* *Price Each* *Item Total*                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                225/60R16 Yokohama AVID Touring                                                                                                   IN STOCK                                                                                                 4                                                                                                $66.00                                                                                                                                                  $264.00                              
---
Nice replacement for the Geolanders.  + these for winter:

215/60R-16 BRIDGESTONE BLIZZAK REVO 1                                                                                                 IN STOCK                                                                                                 4                                                                                                $94.00                                                                                                                                                  $376.00                              
New Steel Wheel 16X6.5 Black Painted                                                                                                 IN STOCK                                                                                                 4                                                                                                $49.00                                                                                                                                                  $196.00


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## MadPadraic (Oct 27, 2008)

WJenness said:


> I know you were talking about an Audi at one point... I've got a 2004 A4 (sedan) with the 3.0 v6 (6 speed) and my mileage is pretty much similar to what you posted except when my girlfriend drives the car... with her it's easy 15% better than when I drive... just as an FYI... and I love my car in the snow, it was great last year (first winter with it). AWD + all seasons... when these tires are done, I'll be getting a winter setup and a summer setup. the A4 avant may be just what you want. There are some great deals on just off lease stuff (how I got mine) and buying it certified is great for peace of mind.
> 
> -w



I second most of the comments on the A4. We get 30.5 mpg in the winter (but we have the smaller engine and a manual). The seats are really comfortable and it plows through the heaviest blizzards as if they are pests to be ignored. That being said, I'd recommend against buying one used certified from a dealer.   Unless they come out with clean diesel for Audi, I suspect that we will switch to Subaru when the time comes (can you put Audi seats in a subaru)?


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## Glenn (Oct 28, 2008)

MadPadraic said:


> (can you put Audi seats in a subaru)?



Anything is a possible with the right tools and a fistful of $. :grin:


----------



## TheBEast (Nov 17, 2008)

Glenn said:


> Yeah, the transmissions in those vans are prone to failure.
> 
> Call me crazy, but now is a good time to buy an SUV. People are spooked by gas prices and that's dropped the prices quite a bit. A buddy and myself were drooling over some 06 Grand Cherokee's on E-Bay last week. Nothing like 2 year old loaded $40k Jeep going for under $20k.



Replaced my '97 Toyota Tacoma in late June with a '06 fully loaded Tundra double-cab for $22K (sticker was $38K brand new - had 11K miles on it).  Everyone was saying, what are you crazy?  And I was like, yeah but gas prices are so variable......and now I drove past $1.83 for 87 octane this afternoon......oh yeah loving my Tundra!!  While I agree gas mileage is a concern, they're giving away these vehicles and for someone who will drive this truck for probably 150k+ miles that's a steal!


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## The Sneak (Nov 17, 2008)

I'm a porsche nut and envy some of my fellow enthusiasts who have no qualms about outfitting their 911s with snow tires and driving them year 'round. Rear engine over the wheels = great traction.

Mine is an early model made before they began galvanizing them, and I don't even like it to outside if its drizzling, That and a host of other issues.

Oh to be wealthy and have a 993 C4...or a VW R32...

when I was in college and skiing the loaf a lot, I frequently saw an 89-94 generation (type 964) 911 C4 (AWD, the 1st gen AWD) with a thule roof box and NY plates in the hotel lot. Must be nice.


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## Big Game (Nov 18, 2008)

The Sneak said:


> That and a host of other issues.



I was foolish enough to try to keep a 67 911 of the road. Mistakes wouldn't have been so bad, but previous owner ripped out weber and jammed solexes in their, creating a fuel problem that caused a recently rebuilt motor (at my expense) to lose lubrication get gouged and start smoking. that hurt. The little bastard was fun to drive...brakes tended to overheat...sure I got away with several miracles. I never drove mine in the snow...or really the cold...no freakin hear the heat exchanges were so shot you can't really say they were there.

I remember in the late 80s in High school, I was at the base of bear mountain and there was a guy who had a red 911 parked (and his buddy parked next to him with a red Honda CRX). Man I thought that was the coolest thing...to have a car like that and not give a sh!t that people would be freakin out that you were driving it in the snow. 

Old 911s aren't good for ski cars that is for sure. But newer ones sure are. Haven't gotten the loot together for a newer one. I got a few other projects going on so its not the highest priority. My hope is that I have a tax client with a 911 who needs some serious tax work done we arrange a mutual exchange.

But until then my 97 Outback with Blizzaks is a pretty good 2nd choice.


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## catskills (Nov 18, 2008)

Diesel 2010 Honda CRV.  I think I will put my order in now.  I figure another 12 months. ;-)


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## Glenn (Nov 18, 2008)

TheBEast said:


> Replaced my '97 Toyota Tacoma in late June with a '06 fully loaded Tundra double-cab for $22K (sticker was $38K brand new - had 11K miles on it).  Everyone was saying, what are you crazy?  And I was like, yeah but gas prices are so variable......and now I drove past $1.83 for 87 octane this afternoon......oh yeah loving my Tundra!!  While I agree gas mileage is a concern, they're giving away these vehicles and for someone who will drive this truck for probably 150k+ miles that's a steal!



Funny how things have worked out. And I think with most of the auto makers seeing sales down at least 15-20%, the deals are still to be had. Nice choice on the Tundra! A guy here at work has one; they're sharp trucks.


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## St. Bear (Mar 6, 2017)

I'm going to resurrect an old thread, because we have a new leader for Best Ski Car.

https://t.co/cW74u8W6H8


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 6, 2017)

St. Bear said:


> I'm going to resurrect an old thread, because we have a new leader for Best Ski Car.
> 
> https://t.co/cW74u8W6H8



Is this thing on the road yet?   Coming back from Vermont yesterday we saw an odd looking Porsche with a ski rack in Whitehall, NY.  It wasn't a Cayenne or a Macan and it was definitely something we'd never seen before.  I didnt really like the look of it, frankly, but I was mostly just surprised to see a ski rack on a Porsche.


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## St. Bear (Mar 6, 2017)

I don't think so, I think it was just announced.


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## yeggous (Mar 6, 2017)

Porsche is making some great SUVs now.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone mobile app


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## dlague (Mar 6, 2017)

I can find a whole lot of other vehicles that I would rather spend money on for skiing that cost wayyyyyy less than $93,000.


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## moresnow (Mar 6, 2017)

St. Bear said:


> I'm going to resurrect an old thread, because we have a new leader for Best Ski Car.
> 
> https://t.co/cW74u8W6H8






BenedictGomez said:


> Is this thing on the road yet?



The Panamera is on the road. It's the sport tourism model (wagon) that is new.


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## Domeskier (Mar 6, 2017)

St. Bear said:


> I'm going to resurrect an old thread, because we have a new leader for Best Ski Car.
> 
> https://t.co/cW74u8W6H8



Porsche is making station wagons now?  Sweet.


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## Smellytele (Mar 6, 2017)

Domeskier said:


> Porsche is making station wagons now?  Sweet.



Next year they come out with a minivan.


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## Whitey (Mar 6, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Is this thing on the road yet?   Coming back from Vermont yesterday we saw an odd looking Porsche with a ski rack in Whitehall, NY.  It wasn't a Cayenne or a Macan and it was definitely something we'd never seen before.  I didnt really like the look of it, frankly, but I was mostly just surprised to see a ski rack on a Porsche.



One pulled into the spot next to me yesterday (no, not a ski area parking lot).   It caught my eye because of the 4 doors, I wasn't used to seeing that on a Porsche.   Looked nice but that's not really my kind of wheels.   I'm more of the "4WD pick up" kind of guy and I don't think I am in Porsche's monetary demographic either.   Probably about as far from it as we are from the moon.    

After I saw that car pull in - I was a little disappointed that the woman who got out of the passenger side wasn't hotter.   She was attractive, I was just expecting more for almost $100K for a car. . .


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## Domeskier (Mar 6, 2017)

Whitey said:


> I'm more of the "4WD pick up" kind of guy



Don't worry; the Porsche pick-up is coming out just after the minivan Smellytele mentions above.


----------



## andrec10 (Mar 6, 2017)

Whitey said:


> One pulled into the spot next to me yesterday (no, not a ski area parking lot).   It caught my eye because of the 4 doors, I wasn't used to seeing that on a Porsche.   Looked nice but that's not really my kind of wheels.   I'm more of the "4WD pick up" kind of guy and I don't think I am in Porsche's monetary demographic either.   Probably about as far from it as we are from the moon.
> 
> After I saw that car pull in - I was a little disappointed that the woman who got out of the passenger side wasn't hotter.   She was attractive, I was just expecting more for almost $100K for a car. . .



She spent all her money on the car and not Plastic Surgery....


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 6, 2017)

Domeskier said:


> Don't worry; *the Porsche pick-up is coming out just after the minivan* Smellytele mentions above.



I remember back in the 90s Toyota marketed a super-fast pick-up truck.  Cant recall the model, but I knew a guy who had one.   I guess the idea didn't take off well as I don't think anyone does that anymore.


----------



## moresnow (Mar 6, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> I remember back in the 90s Toyota marketed a super-fast pick-up truck.  Cant recall the model, but I knew a guy who had one.   I guess the idea didn't take off well as I don't think anyone does that anymore.



A Raptor would probably qualify.


----------



## Domeskier (Mar 6, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> I remember back in the 90s Toyota marketed a super-fast pick-up truck.  Cant recall the model, but I knew a guy who had one.   I guess the idea didn't take off well as I don't think anyone does that anymore.



Yeah, it's probably tough to market a truck like that to a demographic whose main concern is how big you can make the tires.


----------



## WWF-VT (Mar 6, 2017)

St. Bear said:


> I'm going to resurrect an old thread, because we have a new leader for Best Ski Car.
> 
> https://t.co/cW74u8W6H8




Good luck getting that vehicle down my road in VT during mud season


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## dlague (Mar 6, 2017)

I would like to see it get through 2 ft of snow!


----------



## St. Bear (Mar 6, 2017)

moresnow said:


> A Raptor would probably qualify.


The SVT Lightening was not very successful. The Raptor is much more off road capable, the most off road capable Ford ever, and less just a truck with a souped up engine in it.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 6, 2017)

My buddy has a Raptor. That is one awesome truck. I just hate the styling of it.  Way too overdone.  

Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## 2Planker (Mar 6, 2017)

Still love this one...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qxylbbjBl4

Audi Quattro S4 w/ Nokians any day !


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## Edd (Mar 7, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> My buddy has a Raptor. That is one awesome truck. I just hate the styling of it.  Way too overdone.
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app



I had to look up what this truck is. The front end is a turnoff right away.


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## dlague (Mar 7, 2017)

Edd said:


> I had to look up what this truck is. The front end is a turnoff right away.



I think these all look better than that Porsche 

Ram TRX, Ford Raptor, and Chevy Reaper - all 2017


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## hammer (Mar 7, 2017)

Test drove a few Audis a few weeks ago.  Looking at something smaller so I checked out the A3 and Q3.  The A3 was a fun little car but it may be a bit too little...trunk space is tiny.  The Q3 was nice for a compact crossover but the engine/powertrain combo is underwhelming for the price point.

I also checked out a few BMW X1s earlier and they were nice but they didn't wow me.  Strong acceleration but I'm not entirely sure about the new FWD based platform.

Think that next up on the list will be a 3 Series and A4.  Should also venture away from Euro sedans to see what else is out there.

Not too serious at this point, mainly looking because my current ride is still doing well and I can hand it down to my daughter.   She may need something that handles in the snow/ice better than what she currently drives, although I am also considering cheaper options like just getting a set of snows for her car.


----------



## yeggous (Mar 7, 2017)

hammer said:


> Test drove a few Audis a few weeks ago.  Looking at something smaller so I checked out the A3 and Q3.  The A3 was a fun little car but it may be a bit too little...trunk space is tiny.  The Q3 was nice for a compact crossover but the engine/powertrain combo is underwhelming for the price point.
> 
> I also checked out a few BMW X1s earlier and they were nice but they didn't wow me.  Strong acceleration but I'm not entirely sure about the new FWD based platform.
> 
> ...



The entry-level luxury market has the lowest owner satisfaction ratings of any class of vehicle. People think they are getting a luxury car for a reasonable price, but are unprepared for the sacrifices since they are really just buying the badge.

Off all the manufacturers in that market, Audi makes the best vehicles especially when considering reliability. The A4 is a big step up from the A3. While it seems only a little bigger, you get more quality. The AWD system is a big difference moving from a Haldex to Torsen system


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## deadheadskier (Mar 7, 2017)

Edd said:


> I had to look up what this truck is. The front end is a turnoff right away.


Not much better from the side with the giant RAPTOR graphics.  Saw one out at dinner last night.  It reminds me of one of my son's toy trucks.







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## Glenn (Mar 7, 2017)

hammer said:


> Test drove a few Audis a few weeks ago.  Looking at something smaller so I checked out the A3 and Q3.  The A3 was a fun little car but it may be a bit too little...trunk space is tiny.  The Q3 was nice for a compact crossover but the engine/powertrain combo is underwhelming for the price point.
> 
> I also checked out a few BMW X1s earlier and they were nice but they didn't wow me.  Strong acceleration but I'm not entirely sure about the new FWD based platform.
> 
> ...



Take a look at the Lexus IS250. Smaller sedan, similar to the A3/A4. But it's going to have better reliability vs. the German brands.


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 7, 2017)

Have to agree, both that Raptor and that Ram just look cartoonishly silly to me.  Like the Chevy though.    

What really amazes me is how expensive pick-up trucks have gotten.  They used to be point A to point B work trucks that you can scratch & bang up on a farm, now they're tens-of-thousands of dollars.  I cant really appreciate that.  Is anyone who owns a raptor really hauling manure in it or casually tossing nail-embedded 2x4s in the back?  I doubt it.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 7, 2017)

I can tell you my friend who has a Raptor doesn't use it for work purposes.  He sells Spruce Peak real estate. Drives the Raptor in winter and has a Mustang Cobra for the summer.  Likes fast cars

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## St. Bear (Mar 7, 2017)

Need to keep things in context.  The Raptor is not a work truck.  It's designed for maximum off-road capability.  Also why the styling is a bit over the top.  It comes with the territory, which is why you see similar elements in the Chevy and Dodge variants.

Now, are these people actually taking them off road, probably not.  But they're definitely not hauling concrete with them.  Otherwise, they'd get a F350, or even a standard F150.


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## St. Bear (Mar 7, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> I can tell you my friend who has a Raptor doesn't use it for work purposes.  He sells Spruce Peak real estate. *Drives the Raptor in winter* and has a Mustang Cobra for the summer.  Likes fast cars
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app



There you go. This is appropriate use.


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## Domeskier (Mar 7, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Is anyone who owns a raptor really hauling manure in it or casually tossing nail-embedded 2x4s in the back?  I doubt it.



Nah.  They're too busy tailgating other drivers on the highway or menacing on-coming traffic on narrow byways.


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## Edd (Mar 7, 2017)

My workplace has its own parking garage and there are quite a few pickups there.  They all feel very compelled to back into their parking spots so I stop and wait frequently for them to complete this maneuver. It's like they're landing a 747 they go so slow.


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## deadheadskier (Mar 7, 2017)

I guess my feeling is that they might be alienating some potential buyers with the cartoonish looks.  Some folks are interested in the level of performance something like the Raptor provides, but prefer a more subdued look.  I like how a Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT looks basically the same as a standard GC. 

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## Puck it (Mar 7, 2017)




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## Puck it (Mar 7, 2017)

Chevy Colorado ZR2 above


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## Puck it (Mar 7, 2017)

The only ski truck aka Zoomer Bar and Grill!!!!


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## dlague (Mar 7, 2017)

The funny thing about Colorado - I thought it was an environmentally conscious state with focus on green energy and recycling.  There are more darn pickups and SUVs here than I have ever seen.  The #1 selling AWD - Subaru.


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## wa-loaf (Mar 7, 2017)

dlague said:


> The funny thing about Colorado - I thought it was an environmentally conscious state with focus on green energy and recycling.  There are more darn pickups and SUVs here than I have ever seen.  The #1 selling AWD - Subaru.



I was just in the Durango area visiting my mom and doing some skiing. A truck is pretty much required, they live on a steep dirt road that was covered in snow. Also there seem to be a ton of rough roads to access hiking and backcountry stuff, you won't get out there without 4WD and some clearance.


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## dlague (Mar 7, 2017)

wa-loaf said:


> I was just in the Durango area visiting my mom and doing some skiing. A truck is pretty much required, they live on a steep dirt road that was covered in snow. Also there seem to be a ton of rough roads to access hiking and backcountry stuff, you won't get out there without 4WD and some clearance.



There certainly is a lot of off road access


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## Hawkshot99 (Mar 7, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Is this thing on the road yet?   Coming back from Vermont yesterday we saw an odd looking Porsche with a ski rack in Whitehall, NY.  It wasn't a Cayenne or a Macan and it was definitely something we'd never seen before.  I didnt really like the look of it, frankly, but I was mostly just surprised to see a ski rack on a Porsche.


Here is a customer that stopped in a few weeks ago.....







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## Smellytele (Mar 7, 2017)

Hawkshot99 said:


> Here is a customer that stopped in a few weeks ago.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nice with the boots on the roof! Moron


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## BenedictGomez (Mar 7, 2017)

Hawkshot99 said:


> Here is a customer that stopped in a few weeks ago.....



This says to me, _"I live in a cardboard box and subsist solely on a diet of Ramen noodles, but I have a nice car"._


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## benski (Mar 7, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Have to agree, both that Raptor and that Ram just look cartoonishly silly to me.  Like the Chevy though.
> 
> What really amazes me is how expensive pick-up trucks have gotten.  They used to be point A to point B work trucks that you can scratch & bang up on a farm, now they're tens-of-thousands of dollars.  I cant really appreciate that.  Is anyone who owns a raptor really hauling manure in it or casually tossing nail-embedded 2x4s in the back?  I doubt it.



My dad is looking at these cars. I has been trying to get a pickup for years but keeps ending up with hatchbacks. All he caries is skis, bikes and groceries an its plenty of space. He tried to make my first car a Baja when i was in high school. I told him I would drive his car to school every day.


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## albert a ripper (Mar 7, 2017)

We use our Audi on powder days.   Never need to shovel or snow blow the driveway before we leave, just bust through.


Most the other days we use the vanagon.   


Just picked up an Alltrack.   Will eventually replace the Audi.



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## Dickc (Mar 8, 2017)

Pickups have a longer wheelbase.  They are a PITA to pull into most spaces as the center lane is narrow enough you must take two or three cuts to get it in straight.  Backing in it only takes one pass to get it in and get it square.

I own this:


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## moresnow (Mar 9, 2017)

Dickc said:


> Pickups have a longer wheelbase.  They are a PITA to pull into most spaces as the center lane is narrow enough you must take two or three cuts to get it in straight.  Backing in it only takes one pass to get it in and get it square.
> 
> I own this:View attachment 22091


Backing in also makes pulling out safer and easier. Especially if you have a long box.


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## St. Bear (Mar 11, 2017)

Looks like I was quick to declare the Porsche the ultimate ski car. I didn't realize this existed.
http://www.maseratiusa.com/maserati/us/en/models/levante


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## spring_mountain_high (Mar 11, 2017)




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## cdskier (Mar 12, 2017)

St. Bear said:


> Looks like I was quick to declare the Porsche the ultimate ski car. I didn't realize this existed.
> http://www.maseratiusa.com/maserati/us/en/models/levante



Speaking of Maserati...there was a Maserati Q4 Ghibli in my condo parking lot this weekend...


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## Domeskier (Mar 13, 2017)

St. Bear said:


> Looks like I was quick to declare the Porsche the ultimate ski car. I didn't realize this existed.
> http://www.maseratiusa.com/maserati/us/en/models/levante



I think it's got some competition: http://www.bentleymotors.com/en/models/bentayga/bentayga.html, unfortunate choice in names aside.


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## St. Bear (Mar 13, 2017)

Domeskier said:


> I think it's got some competition: http://www.bentleymotors.com/en/models/bentayga/bentayga.html, unfortunate choice in names aside.


$210,998+. I can sell my house and live in that!


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## deadheadskier (Mar 30, 2017)

Spotted this sweet ski ride at Attitash today.






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## bushpilot (Mar 30, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Spotted this sweet ski ride at Attitash today.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I wonder what it looks like on the inside.


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## oldtimer (Mar 30, 2017)

sledhaulingmaniac NEEDS this ride.




deadheadskier said:


> Spotted this sweet ski ride at Attitash today.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## deadheadskier (Mar 30, 2017)

bushpilot said:


> I wonder what it looks like on the inside.


Tuning bench, hot tub and beer fridge

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## bushpilot (Mar 30, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> Tuning bench, hot tub and beer fridge
> 
> Sent from my XT1565 using AlpineZone mobile app



I should have known. All the essentials for skiing &#55356;&#57279;


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## ALLSKIING (Oct 14, 2017)

Bump

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## Hawkshot99 (Oct 14, 2017)

For the 2018 winter I have upper the ski worthiness of my ski truck.  I picked up a used bed cap over the summer, and built a platform in the bed that is wheel well height.  Under the platform there is room to slide skis up under the platform.  I am able to sleep in the bed if needed as well.  I have not winter slept in the setup yet, but have summer camped in it a few times.


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