# Safety of (eastern) tree skiing?



## abc (Mar 2, 2020)

Here in the east, we don't have tree wells. So the only danger of skiing unknown trees are being closed out by dense trees, or encountering dead end drops. 

The death at Mansfield brought that last risk a little closer to home. It's not clear if the skier fell off or skied off a cliff. But suppose he skied off a cliff he didn't know, or didn't know the condition of the landing...?

I was skiing some of the woods in Stowe Saturday. I'm not particularly familiar with the resort. Even though I know the runs, I don't know all the woods. But this particular patch of woods *I had already did once, slowly and cautiously*. So the second time I entered it, I THOUGHT I know it so was enjoying going smoothly through it, picking new line with as much fresh as I could find. (so I wasn't doing the exact same line as my 1st run) At one point, I couldn't see where the path would lead to, and I stopped. 

I could see skiers going below on an open run. I was only 10-15' above it. There were tracks going in other direction. But the path in front of me was fresh. So tempting... I was almost ready to just go for it with a leap of faith. But being old and a chicken, I decided I want to pick a path I can actually SEE the landing. 

After a quick traverse, I found an easy drop into the run below. I decided to go back up the 10-15 yard to check where I would have landed had I continued to pursue my original "fresh line". My heart skipped a beat. Not only was the landing uneven, there were some snowmaking stuff on the side of the trail that I might have bumped into. High likelihood of not ending well.

Often times, we follow tracks in the woods without actually seeing where we ultimately end up. 9 out of 10 times, it leads us out safely. I've certainly have had cases where I really shouldn't have, but my luck had so far held. And even of the many cases I stopped and went elsewhere, only to find it was perfectly safe to have continued on. Every one of those "safe ending" case pushes me insidiously towards being just a little bolder. But this was one case I'm glad I stopped and went the other way. 

How do you keep yourself safe in unfamiliar woods? Stopping every few turns is a bit of a kill joy. But sometimes a seemingly easy path may not be so. How do you balance?


----------



## WWF-VT (Mar 2, 2020)

abc said:


> Here in the east, we don't have tree wells. So the only danger of skiing unknown trees are being closed out by dense trees, or encountering dead end drops.



Snowboarder died at Stowe in 2017. Tumbled head-first into a deep pit not far off a trail.   

Never ski/ride alone in the woods. Minimum group of 3 - one person stays with the injured person and the other goes for help.


----------



## kendo (Mar 2, 2020)

WWF-VT said:


> Snowboarder died at Stowe in 2017. Tumbled head-first into a deep pit not far off a trail.
> 
> Never ski/ride alone in the woods. Minimum group of 3 - one person stays with the injured person and the other goes for help.




This report includes a video regarding the 2017 incident.  Sobering that it happened not far off trail.  

https://www.necn.com/news/local/ver...conditions-facing-snowboarder-who-died/24853/


----------



## bdfreetuna (Mar 2, 2020)

I don't consider familiar woods much safer than unfamiliar woods. Probably less so because you're cruising with confidence.

The most dangerous woods are whenever you pick up a lot of speed -- margin for error decreases and likelihood of injury goes up.



WWF-VT said:


> Never ski/ride alone in the woods. Minimum group  of 3 - one person stays with the injured person and the other goes for  help.



Might as well never ski at all if you go by yourself. You talking about backcountry or in bounds tree skiing?


----------



## abc (Mar 2, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> I don't consider familiar woods much safer than unfamiliar woods. Probably less so because you're cruising with confidence.
> 
> The most dangerous woods are whenever you pick up a lot of speed -- margin for error decreases and likelihood of injury goes up.


Good point. 



> Might as well never ski at all if you go by yourself. You talking about backcountry or in bounds tree skiing?


it's like "never hike alone", a rule I violated all my life. In theory, you could break your leg and, no one will come by for a week and you die of starvation. Possible? Yes. Likely? 

Some people don't even ski along. I fail to see the relevant. 

We're also not suppose to jaywalk in the city. But there's a difference between crossing a side street mid-block when it's red signal for cars, vs. crossing 9th Ave when the light just turned green. 

That's why I ask "*how do you balance*".

Rules about "never" is mostly useless. It's really only good for people who can't or don't want to think (or walk and chew gum at the same time :roll.


----------



## Hawk (Mar 2, 2020)

I always ski with a great abundance of caution in the woods.  I ski in control all the time.  When I feel that I am getting out of control I stop and reset.  I never ski alone in the woods.  Even with that, two years ago I hooked a stump I did not see and it propelled me into some trees.  I did not break or tear anything but had pain for about 4 weeks in my leg and knee. It was just so sudden.  I guess the moral of the story is if your ski in the woods it is not a matter of if, it's a matter of when.  The only thing that changes is the outcome.  Some are luckier than others.  I am sure there will people that disagree but some of the best skiers I know have had injuries in the woods.  A couple I know were out for a year or more.  A couple never skied again.


----------



## Zand (Mar 2, 2020)

I ski alone a lot...if I'm going into unfamiliar territory I wait for someone to go in with me. If its familiar I go in alone...worth the risk to me.


----------



## bdfreetuna (Mar 2, 2020)

Yup absolutely when not if.

Agree on stopping and resetting, especially if the legs start burning and/or start feeling sloppy. I'll even call it a day early if I'm not able to rip anymore... just seems like asking for trouble sometimes.

Skiing trees isn't a race it's all about the flow... and you need to be in control to demonstrate said flow.

I ski more trees than trails (when possible) but only have one minor bang-up to speak of. Know your limits! I know I have a good chance of injury every time I ski. Nice thing about skiing alone though is you never have to be in a hurry if you don't want to. If you're in a group and the slower skiing you're chasing the whole time, that can lead to bad judgement and cutting corners in an effort to keep up.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Mar 2, 2020)

as someone who skis trees only a quarter of my time on skis due to living in PA, I'm always skiing way slower than I do when on trails.  even my trail skiing is more checked at the bigger mountains for the same reason.  Safety.  The reset description is really good one.   Sometimes even if my flow is good I'll stop and reset to a different line.


----------



## Orca (Mar 2, 2020)

From my perspective, the biggest danger in the woods is catching your ski on some little stump or other hidden feature such it causes you to either fall haphazardly or temporarily lose control, with the attendant risk of hitting something hard and immovable. This danger is heightened when there is marginal cover.

I don't consider cliffs much of a danger in the east. Different story out west.


----------



## abc (Mar 2, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> Sometimes even if my flow is good I'll stop and reset to a different line.


I guess that's the part I'm thinking of. 

I stop to "reset" when in doubt. Many times, it's just to re-access or to confirm my intended lines are still good. Often times, the stop breaks the flow. 

10 year earlier, my reflex was quicker. Can think on my feet much faster. I can route find, line choice, and execute all in one micro-second. Now, my vision isn't as good, and my brain processing speed also slows down. Can't quite do the same in the same time frame no more. "Stopping to reset" happens a lot more frequent.


----------



## JimG. (Mar 2, 2020)

Orca said:


> From my perspective, the biggest danger in the woods is catching your ski on some little stump or other hidden feature such it causes you to either fall haphazardly or temporarily lose control, with the attendant risk of hitting something hard and immovable. This danger is heightened when there is marginal cover.



This. Hidden stumps and deadfall. Barely covered rocks. 

Just happened to me about a week ago at K. Skiing in the trees, suddenly hear a clicking noise and then skiing along on one ski. Lucky to come to a stop and look up to see my ski wedged underneath a branch. Slid that baby right under it.

And definitely more of a hazard with marginal conditions.


----------



## jaytrem (Mar 2, 2020)

I always figure skiing in the trees is less likely to kill you.  #1 you're no doubt going slower.  #2 much lower chance of an out of control skier hitting you.  Maybe more likely to get hurt but less likely to be killed.  Same deal with mountain biking versus road biking.  Almost 0% chance of being hit by a car in the woods, and if you do, it's just not your day.


----------



## AdironRider (Mar 2, 2020)

Skiing the trees does not require 3 people. 

Some of the advice in this thread is a little, let's say, overly precautious. 

Skiing the trees is not cheating death.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 2, 2020)

AdironRider said:


> Skiing the trees does not require 3 people.
> 
> Some of the advice in this thread is a little, let's say, overly precautious.
> 
> Skiing the trees is not cheating death.



you said it man. pretty absurd actually.

after getting some more info on the stowe incident, i can confirm that i have met and skied with andy on at least two occasions. a strong skier and a stowe regular. 

his death is tragic, but its not going to change a damn thing about how i ski in the woods. if its anything inbounds or sidecountry terrain i am already familiar with, i will go in alone. i carry a whistle, a walkie, a cell phone, a portable charger, and i always have a basic first aid and firestarting kit on me. 

i ski alone 75% of my days. im certainly not staying out of the woods. skiing the woods is the whole point for me, and i prefer the solitude of doing it alone.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Mar 2, 2020)

yeah I pretty much ski the trees by myself when I'm up north.  wife knows where I went and where I will meet here. but as I said I'm usually more cautious in there more so because I'm just not a pro at it and I know my limit.


----------



## JimG. (Mar 2, 2020)

Mostly a solo guy here too.


----------



## bdfreetuna (Mar 2, 2020)

I send my wife a text before heading into backcountry and stuff like that and tell her what it's called and follow up text a half hour later or however long it takes.


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 2, 2020)

I used to ski virtually anything solo.  I'd hike the Chin on Mansfield and ski Hourglass and numerous other no fall zone type stuff by myself.  I  often preferred the experience.  Something about being all alone on top of Mansfield that's really cool. 

Combination of having kids and a near miss of a serious injury on Tractor Line at Wildcat about four years ago has my mortality a little bit more in check.  I don't really ski big boy lines solo any more.  

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 2, 2020)

here's the most info i've seen publicly on the stowe death. felt appropriate to continue the convo here (i initially mentioned it in the storm thread). felt inappropriate to give it its own thread. so here we are.

anyway, they took sensation and tried to access the bowls via spruce. i've honestly never skied that side of the notch via stowe, only smuggs, but my understanding is that massive cliffs reside on the stowe side, and if you traverse out to the bowls i've skied from stowe, you wind up very far from stowe on 108 with an uphill traverse back. so i dont know exactly what they were thinking (@deadheadskier, would love your insights here as i know you know the lay of the land well over there), but the article states that andy was found at the bottom of a *220 foot cliff*

https://vtskiandride.com/a-skier-dies-and-a-tragic-rescue/

to the point of this thread (because it seems this incident prompted it), these guys weren't 'tree skiing'. they were backcountry skiing in a known cliff zone. huge difference.

edit: looking at some maps, it appears they went the wrong way on the long trail off the top of spruce and wound up on the big cliffs?


----------



## JimG. (Mar 2, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> I used to ski virtually anything solo.  I'd hike the Chin on Mansfield and ski Hourglass and numerous other no fall zone type stuff by myself.  I  often preferred the experience.  Something about being all alone on top of Mansfield that's really cool.
> 
> Combination of having kids and a near miss of a serious injury on Tractor Line at Wildcat about four years ago has my mortality a little bit more in check.  I don't really ski big boy lines solo any more.
> 
> Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app



I probably don't ski "big boy" lines anymore at all. Once I was over 60 I just didn't feel the need. Having a family including 3 sons makes me realize I have way too much to lose. So I'm not as selfish as I was when I was younger.

But in bounds non-hike-to stuff on the map is fair game for the solo skier IMO. Sidecountry also.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 2, 2020)

Here’s what I think happened. Blue is intent, red is what happened:




Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## bdfreetuna (Mar 2, 2020)

^ damn that hits a little close to home reading those details

Guess I'll pass on trying any back bowls from Stowe side. Not that I was planning it. Even the run I took with my wife on Smuggs side back bowls I think I'll pass on doing solo in the future. There was definitely one or two semi hairy sections, at least the line we skied, and I could see easily getting off trajectory on a powder day or storm skiing.

Edit... yup Krusty that's what I was thinking too. And TBH a mistake that could be too easy to make in conditions with low visibility or untracked snow. Those cliffs are no joke and drop out of nowhere.


----------



## abc (Mar 2, 2020)

Yes, this prompted me pondering about the decision we make when skiing off trail. 

Yes, they were skiing in the back country. Still, a lot of the decision making process is similar. Just the consequences are way heavier. 

Similarly, they were in heavily wooded area, which makes route finding tricky. You can’t scout from below ahead of the time. And spotting landmarks is difficult so it’s easy to end up in different places than one thought. 

Falling off the cliff is tragic. But it could happen in a lot of places.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 2, 2020)

I'll ski alone in trees that are:

1) Visible from adjacent trails.
2) Glades that I am VERY familiar with (like knowing every turn of a road you drive).

Outside of that, I respect the mountain pretty much entirely.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 2, 2020)

I have no idea how that could have happened given I read on a N.E. ski page _"they knew Stowe very well"_, which seems impossible if Kusty's explanation is correct.  It's not difficult at all finding the back bowls from Spruce.  You simply ski down the same trail that you hike up from the Smuggler's Notch side.  It's unofficially called "Snuffy's Trail" (or at least it used to be called that.  I didnt even know those 200'+ cliffs existed.  I guess something like that could happen if all-of-a-sudden conditions went to zero visibility like can happen out west, but even then, I really dont understand this.   Unless there's some route there that I'm unaware of, but I dont think so?   Almost seems like they decided to Lewis & Clark it & explore without knowing there were cliffs there?  Horribly sad however it happened. R.I.P.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 2, 2020)

Okay, I was curious & had to figure this out.   Here's the general area where the guy went off the cliff, it's an ice climbing area called, "Doug's Route" according to the news (link below).   Apparently he went to look over the edge & lost his footing.


If you see the dashed-line at the top of Sensation, heading toward the pond (Sterling), they should have gone in that direction, but it appears they must have went left off Sensation instead.   












https://patch.com/connecticut/vernon/connecticut-skier-killed-vermont-backcountry-accident


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 2, 2020)

KustyTheKlown said:


> Here’s what I think happened. Blue is intent, red is what happened:
> 
> View attachment 26490
> 
> ...


Yikes!  If that was what happened, that's terrifying. 

So Tusk is the prominent Gully you see that you access off Upper Smugglers Trail on Spruce just above where US can cut off back towards Main Street.  Relevant to this conversation, I've skied Tusk a few times alone when I probably shouldn't have because the snow is very hit or miss in it and when it's bad, it's dangerously bad.  Basically from Tusk to your blue zone is I don't think skied by really anyone.  Maybe some secrets in there I don't know about these days as it's been 15 years since Stowe was home, but nobody I knew back then was really going out there.  I always basically have skied blue and on down to Sterling lift at Smuggs.  Never hoofed it back over to Stowe.  It's basically no different from Stowe side vs Smuggs. You ski out towards the middle and drop in.  I do recall one time I ventured towards "red" in search of fresh snow when the bowl was tracked out and actually got cliffed out and had to hike back up a little bit .  But it was like a 30 foot cliff and you could easily see it coming.  I thought maybe there might be something to the left of it, but it was just totally dense fir trees and then the cliff just keeps growing the further skiers left up into red to probably 200+ feet like you said. 

On the Mansfield side I never ventured much further into the notch than Hellbrook.  People do push it further that way, but again you run the risk of getting on top of some 100 foot plus cliffs.  

It honestly surprises me there aren't more side country deaths at Stowe. So many places to get into serious trouble that are not too much effort to reach from the lifts.   

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## bdfreetuna (Mar 2, 2020)

Good intel from you guys as sad as this topic is.

DHS... is Hellbrook the very clear and obvious, extreme looking diagonal directly across from Smuggs back bowls? Resembled a narrow version of Hillman's Highway.

It seems to line up on the topo map with what I was looking at, but again I'm talking a real narrow vertical gully for 1500 vert by all appearances.

Anyway if you skied that... very brave. I'd like to explore beyond Angel Food more but 0% chance I'm skiing that gully.


----------



## bdfreetuna (Mar 2, 2020)

Kind of answered my own question looking at FatMap

https://fatmap.com/routeid/30328/He...98,-15.8610162,-76.0897041,651.0446029,normal

So yes Hellbrook is what I was looking at --- looks insane at least from perspective across the road.

Also I guess I've skied "Outer Planet #1" a few times thinking it was just part of Angel Food. Guess the next 2 routes are next on the list.

This map is pretty sweet...


----------



## Vaughn (Mar 2, 2020)

Fatmap is very cool but odd in that Stowe has some backcountry stuff marked but other places in NH don't seem to. Is that all user added content?


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 2, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> Kind of answered my own question looking at FatMap
> 
> https://fatmap.com/routeid/30328/He...98,-15.8610162,-76.0897041,651.0446029,normal
> 
> ...


That map outlines Hellbrook yes, but no you can't see it from Smuggs back bowls.  If you were standing in Smuggs back bowls looking out straight, Hellbrook would probably be at least a mile looking left and around the curve of the notch out of view. I'm not certain what the "diagonol"  line is you spied. 

Hellbrook itself really isn't easy, but not at all that crazy either.  It skis like 19th hole at MRG for the top 500 vertical, so tight spruce trees, then skis like Angel Food or Outer Planets for the bottom 1500 vert.  The challenge is getting there. You either ski Profanity or Hourglass and hike 30 or 40 minutes up around the Adams Apple to get there or catch the North Ridge off the Chin when it's skiable, which is rare.  When that's in it runs right out almost to the entrance of Hellbrook with maybe a 10 minute hike. Only caught North Ridge right a couple of times; it's typically picked clean of most snow by the wind.  



Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## Sick Bird Rider (Mar 2, 2020)

abc said:


> Here in the east, we don't have tree wells.



There are tree wells in the east, I can assure you. Fell in one head-first, not far off a marked trail at Jay Peak some years ago. Once my ski partners stopped laughing at my predicament, one of them pulled me out. Had they not been there, I might have suffocated, as the snow was piling up around my head and I was pretty stuck, and upside down. 

What a sad story out of Stowe.


----------



## Not Sure (Mar 2, 2020)

I'd be curious if they were using GPS to navigate or from experience ? I've been sent the wrong way by my phone GPS , snowy misty day  if it wasn't for the highway noise I would have ended up on a slippery leafy area . 

I ski the woods alone at times but not very deeply but within shouting distance. At Killington may years ago skiing a gully a few turns and it collapsed . I was up to my neck and could hear running water below 

When I was younger it was all about seeking a greater thrill , I was half way down mount standish at Sunshine village. Not satisfied with the trail I was on ,I spotted a set of tracks between two pine trees .  10' Away and committed I realized my error as I was airborne off a 30' cliff fortunately I landed in a big snowdrift . So not happy with clearing the drift I hit it again with more speed :grin:

Some pretty hairy accidental cliff drops on youtube.


----------



## Smellytele (Mar 3, 2020)

Orca said:


> From my perspective, the biggest danger in the woods is catching your ski on some little stump or other hidden feature such it causes you to either fall haphazardly or temporarily lose control, with the attendant risk of hitting something hard and immovable. This danger is heightened when there is marginal cover.
> 
> I don't consider cliffs much of a danger in the east. Different story out west.



I have come across a few cliffs in the last week. One at Bolton (15-20 foot) and a few at Stowe 20-25'


----------



## kingslug (Mar 3, 2020)

I knew there where cliffs around there but not 200 foot ones.


----------



## bdfreetuna (Mar 3, 2020)

Looks like (Extreme) Ryan Delena uploaded the Stowe info to Fat Map. He's on YouTube and other social media and you've probably seen him if you search for sidecountry in NH & VT.



deadheadskier said:


> That map outlines Hellbrook yes, but no you can't see it from Smuggs back bowls.  If you were standing in Smuggs back bowls looking out straight, Hellbrook would probably be at least a mile looking left and around the curve of the notch out of view. I'm not certain what the "diagonol"  line is you spied.



I think I figured it out... so the larger yellow overlay to the right is the gully/rock slide I was thinking of and looking at. I'm sure people have skied this, whatever it is, but it looks very extreme.

Based on your correction I am thinking the smaller green overlay to the top left must be the start of Hellbrook?



According to this topo map I have to assume it's the top of Jeff's Slide, or perhaps the next one over.
https://caltopo.com/m/RH9Q


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 3, 2020)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> I'd be curious if they were using GPS to navigate or from experience ? I've been sent the wrong way by my phone GPS , snowy misty day  if it wasn't for the highway noise I would have ended up on a slippery leafy area .
> 
> I ski the woods alone at times but not very deeply but within shouting distance. At Killington may years ago skiing a gully a few turns and it collapsed . I was up to my neck and could hear running water below
> 
> ...



even just using the basic "for recreational purposes only" ski tracks app would have clearly showed them that they were in a very bad zone.


----------



## deadheadskier (Mar 3, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> Looks like (Extreme) Ryan Delena uploaded the Stowe info to Fat Map. He's on YouTube and other social media and you've probably seen him if you search for sidecountry in NH & VT.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Correct

Green is Hellbrook.  As for Yellow, I would think if people were skiing that they are probably hiking up from the Notch floor instead of heading over from the top of Mansfield.  I would think that would be both faster and safer to check snow stability 

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## nhskier1969 (Mar 3, 2020)

Sick Bird Rider said:


> There are tree wells in the east, I can assure you. Fell in one head-first, not far off a marked trail at Jay Peak some years ago. Once my ski partners stopped laughing at my predicament, one of them pulled me out. Had they not been there, I might have suffocated, as the snow was piling up around my head and I was pretty stuck, and upside down.
> 
> What a sad story out of Stowe.



I agree with you.  I was skiing two years ago At Sugarbush at the end of Feb early march after a good storm cycle.  Family was sleeping in so I broke my own cardinal rule.  Never ski in the woods by myself.  I Dropped in to skiers right about a couple hundred yards on Paradise.  I was skiing and I was going a little faster than I wanted to, So a slowed myself down, but I fell going forward at a slower speed.  Anyway I fell in to a group of small pine trees that were close to each other.  I fell into the group of small pines and ended up with my head facing up and my feet were even with the head.  It was almost like getting stuffed into a garbage barrel.    It took me awhile to get out of there.  The tails of my skis were stuck and I had a very hard time getting the skis kicked off.  After a while, I was able to get on of my skis kicked off.  Once I got my skis off I was standing in chest deep snow.



BTW, this was the second tree well I got caught in.  The other was 10 years ago at Grand Targhee.


----------



## Hawk (Mar 3, 2020)

Yes this thread is mainly about that unfortunate person at Stowe.  I have never ventured that far out at stowe.  Only skied hour glass and too the skiers left of that and then down into that Bench glades and sometimes out to 108.  That is serious terrain out there.  There were posts back years ago on the Famous Internet Skiers site where they skied some of those chute.  Ropes were required they showed where they did it and how they did it.  Pretty cool.
As for skiing in Three's.  I think there are 2 types of situations here that are getting combined.
1) Glade skiing in bounds or know well traveled glades. - In this case I am sure we all have skied alone in glades that get well traveled.  The risk of not being seen if you get hurt are lower and extraction is easier.
2) Side country and back country - areas like slidebrook that are expansive and not patrolled with low skier traffic is a different story.  You really should ski with 3.  On several occasions I have either been involved or came upon an injured person in an area like this.  I guess if it were you with a compound fracture in the woods starting to go into shock with no one around, you might have a different perspective.  It is imperative to have some one there to help and someone to go and get help.  Trust me, you only have to experience this once to understand.


----------



## abc (Mar 3, 2020)

Hawk said:


> Yes this thread is mainly about that unfortunate person at Stowe.


It isn't. But


> there are 2 types of situations here that are getting combined





> The risk of not being seen *if you get hurt *is lower


Even inbound, that's not a given. In the woods, it's not easy to see anything beyond a few turns. I've been in groups where, when we got out and found we were missing one or two!  In those cases, the missing skiers were not injured, just slow or came out at a different spot. But imagine trying to go back to find them if they didn't come out at all! 

As someone pointed out, going a group in the woods has its own drawback. The slower skier were pushed to keep up. That's when their injury potential get elevated. 

My preferred inbound wood skiing is with one other person. Much easier to keep track of. There's no chance of "I thought you were with him", "Oh, I thought he went with you!".


----------



## Domeskier (Mar 3, 2020)

I won't ski the woods alone because I feel funny about asking total strangers to give me a thorough spider check when I'm done.


----------



## mikec142 (Mar 3, 2020)

The incident at Stowe is awful on many levels.

I'm a solid skier, but not confident enough to be tackling the backcountry.  Would try it with an experienced guide.  

Using Sugarbush as an example (it's the mountain I ski the most), I think there's a difference between marked glades, unmarked yet inbounds glades, sidecountry, and backcountry.  

I'm completely comfortable going into Eden or Deeper Sleeper alone.  On the otherhand, I met a nice guy on the Castlerock lift and he took me through the woods to the skier's right off of Middle Earth.  I don't think I'd do that alone.  The trees were too close together and there's not a chance that if I was injured that someone would see me from the lift or trail.  I've never skied Slidebrook as I'm often alone.  I'd love to check it out, but the idea of skiing it alone doesn't sound like an idea that I'm comfortable, especially if I'm not comfortable skiing certain in bounds glades alone.  

When I ski with my kids (both solid skiers, but still teenagers, so I'm not sure if they have the healthy sense of fear that I have) and they want to go into the tougher glades, I'm all in, as long as I see a decent amount of tracks that would indicate I'm not the first person who has done this.

The plan for this season was to hire a guide/instructor to take us into Slidebrook, but I tore a calf muscle before the sidecountry snow was good enough and haven't had the chance yet.


----------



## skiur (Mar 3, 2020)

Domeskier said:


> I won't ski the woods alone because I feel funny about asking total strangers to give me a thorough spider check when I'm done.



I dont get it?


----------



## Domeskier (Mar 3, 2020)

skiur said:


> I dont get it?



I'd rather not have spiders hitching a ride home with me.  So I mostly stay out of the woods.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 3, 2020)

and the winner of the lamest comment in the thread goes to...


----------



## bdfreetuna (Mar 3, 2020)

or the best joke

Anyway mikec142 reminds me of an important point. Make sure you have cell phone signal before venturing into the hairy stuff. If you're injured you can most likely still make a call for help.

I say this as someone who hates cell towers on ski mountains for both health and eyesore reasons. Imagine working full time at MRG Bird's Nest with a cell tower right on it's roof, when even the workers who maintain it undergo special precautions and limited time right next to those things. "RF burn" is an occupational hazard similar to a sunburn. Really not thinking of their employees and customer health when these things are placed right next to buildings that are occupied regularly. An intro to the topic... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pzcuQw7XWY


----------



## skiur (Mar 3, 2020)

Domeskier said:


> I'd rather not have spiders hitching a ride home with me.  So I mostly stay out of the woods.



I still dont get it


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 3, 2020)

yea im reading this as an actual fear of spiders in the woods unless clarified, and i stand by my 'lamest post' comment.


----------



## abc (Mar 3, 2020)

Spider in the winter?


----------



## bdfreetuna (Mar 3, 2020)

You guys don't ski enough trees if you don't run into spiders on a regular basis.



I mean, on those warm April days it does happen from time to time.

Thought I heard a rattlesnake in the woods @ Magic a couple days ago. Turned out to be a bird.


----------



## Domeskier (Mar 3, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> You guys don't ski enough trees if you don't run into spiders on a regular basis.



The spider hazard in tree skiing really doesn't get the publicity it deserves.


----------



## skiur (Mar 3, 2020)

I have heard of snow snakes in the trees, but never heard of a spider.


----------



## bdfreetuna (Mar 3, 2020)

Domeskier said:


> The spider hazard in tree skiing really doesn't get the publicity it deserves.



I'm surprised we're even allowed to ski through their habitats.


----------



## mikec142 (Mar 3, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> eminds me of an important point. Make sure you have cell phone signal before venturing into the hairy stuff. If you're injured you can most likely still make a call for help.



^this!


----------



## nhskier1969 (Mar 3, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> I'm surprised we're even allowed to ski through their habitats.



You can in NH and Maine but Vermont would never allow it.

LOL


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Mar 3, 2020)

Domeskier said:


> The spider hazard in tree skiing really doesn't get the publicity it deserves.



I hate spiders... I guess I'll never ski trees again


----------



## Vaughn (Mar 3, 2020)

Apparently someone died at Loon this weekend after sliding into a tree off a trail. 

https://www.wmur.com/article/snowbo...on-mountain-new-hampshire-police-say/31192724

What's the fatality rate per visitor for off trail and on trail skiing? I don't recall any other off trail deaths this season but there's probably been a few like the Loon incident.


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 3, 2020)

deadheadskier said:


> Yikes!  If that was what happened, that's terrifying.
> 
> So Tusk is the prominent Gully you see that you access off Upper Smugglers Trail on Spruce just above where US can cut off back towards Main Street.  Relevant to this conversation, I've skied Tusk a few times alone when I probably shouldn't have because the snow is very hit or miss in it and when it's bad, it's dangerously bad.  Basically from Tusk to your blue zone is I don't think skied by really anyone.  Maybe some secrets in there I don't know about these days as it's been 15 years since Stowe was home, but nobody I knew back then was really going out there.  I always basically have skied blue and on down to Sterling lift at Smuggs.  Never hoofed it back over to Stowe.  It's basically no different from Stowe side vs Smuggs. You ski out towards the middle and drop in.  I do recall one time I ventured towards "red" in search of fresh snow when the bowl was tracked out and actually got cliffed out and had to hike back up a little bit .  But it was like a 30 foot cliff and you could easily see it coming.  I thought maybe there might be something to the left of it, but it was just totally dense fir trees and then the cliff just keeps growing the further skiers left up into red to probably 200+ feet like you said.
> 
> ...



apparently there is a way to ski off the northside of elephant head and into the bowls, popping you out closer to stowe on 108 than my blue zone line. i'm told that this is the main bowls access point coming from sensation. makes sense i guess since the cliffs are on the west and south sides of elephants head, but yikes that leaves little room for error.


----------



## Domeskier (Mar 3, 2020)

jimmywilson69 said:


> I hate spiders... I guess I'll never ski trees again



Just ski with a spider checker like I do and remember to close any helmet vents and you should be fine.  Be careful where you store your gear in the lodge, too.  An don't forget to check underneath you chair before sitting down to lunch.  With the right precautions, skiing can be a relatively spider-free activity.


----------



## jimmywilson69 (Mar 3, 2020)

Hold on, I'm writing this down...


----------



## bdfreetuna (Mar 3, 2020)

Domeskier said:


> Just ski with a spider checker like I do



I know they have those at Sugarbush but it sounds pretty expensive

https://www.sugarbush.com/lessons/egan-adventures/


----------



## abc (Mar 3, 2020)

I have arachnophobia too. But I ski the woods all the time. 

Spiders don't come out in the winter. Why? There's no insects. So why waste precious energy weaving webs that would simply got blown away in the next storm? 

Now, mountain biking in the summer, that's a very different sport.  I'm never the fastest rider. But even if I have the lungs and legs, I still would at most be the second rider in the group...


----------



## JimG. (Mar 3, 2020)

I hear the spiders are a real problem in that new indoor ski dome.


----------



## Domeskier (Mar 3, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> I know they have those at Sugarbush but it sounds pretty expensive
> 
> https://www.sugarbush.com/lessons/egan-adventures/



It's good to know he'll spider check each additional member of your group for just $55, though.


----------



## Domeskier (Mar 3, 2020)

JimG. said:


> I hear the spiders are a real problem in that new indoor ski dome.



Yes, I hear the spiders set up a huge spider colony during the 20 years it stood vacant.  Some of the trails are still closed because of it.  Fumigation plans are in the works, but there are many environmental hurdles.


----------



## bdfreetuna (Mar 3, 2020)

Sugarbush has always catered to a loftier clientele but still this confuses me. Since when did this become such a primary focus? Butterfly effect?


----------



## Orca (Mar 3, 2020)

bdfreetuna said:


> Sugarbush has always catered to a loftier clientele but still this confuses me. Since when did this become such a primary focus? Butterfly effect?
> View attachment 26496



Truly awesome!


----------



## Smellytele (Mar 3, 2020)

Vaughn said:


> Apparently someone died at Loon this weekend after sliding into a tree off a trail.
> 
> https://www.wmur.com/article/snowbo...on-mountain-new-hampshire-police-say/31192724
> 
> What's the fatality rate per visitor for off trail and on trail skiing? I don't recall any other off trail deaths this season but there's probably been a few like the Loon incident.



This is the 2nd death at Loon this year.


Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


----------



## Domeskier (Mar 3, 2020)

Orca said:


> Truly awesome!



Haha +1 Tuna!  That's hilarious.


----------



## machski (Mar 3, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> This is the 2nd death at Loon this year.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


Do we count this as on trail or off as he was skiing on trail, fell and slid off.  Either way, sad.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using AlpineZone mobile app


----------



## KustyTheKlown (Mar 3, 2020)

dumb question. on trail. this is the much more typical 'beginner or intermediate loses control on icy eastern hardpack and goes hard into a tree on the side' situation, a la hunter.


----------



## Not Sure (Mar 3, 2020)

abc said:


> I have arachnophobia too. But I ski the woods all the time.
> 
> Spiders don't come out in the winter. Why? There's no insects. So why waste precious energy weaving webs that would simply got blown away in the next storm?
> 
> ..



Not entirely true......... Before I cleared more trees around my place my kids would end up with ticks late February and March . Also can't forget about those extremely poisonous snow fleas ....Well only toxic to skiers that ski with roofs over their heads.


----------



## Vaughn (Mar 3, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> This is the 2nd death at Loon this year.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Found this article which gives the stat of "During the 10-year period, New Hampshire Alpine ski areas reported more than 21 million total skier and snowboard visits. That works out to one death for every 1.23 million visits (a visit being one person spending one day at a ski area)." 

https://www.concordmonitor.com/skiing-deaths-history-new-hampshrie-8357042

I think the fatality rate is way lower for off trail skiers. You're not going backcountry without knowing at least something and generally can't 'accidentally' get going 40+ mph into the trees when you hit an ice path on some black diamond groomer.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 3, 2020)

Smellytele said:


> *This is the 2nd death at Loon this year.*



From spiders?


----------



## nhskier1969 (Mar 4, 2020)

Vaughn said:


> Found this article which gives the stat of "During the 10-year period, New Hampshire Alpine ski areas reported more than 21 million total skier and snowboard visits. That works out to one death for every 1.23 million visits (a visit being one person spending one day at a ski area)."
> 
> https://www.concordmonitor.com/skiing-deaths-history-new-hampshrie-8357042
> 
> I think the fatality rate is way lower for off trail skiers. You're not going backcountry without knowing at least something and generally can't 'accidentally' get going 40+ mph into the trees when you hit an ice path on some black diamond groomer.




I read a couple years ago about the demographic for skier fatalities  The highest demo is men, 35-54, expert skiers, skiing intermediate trails.


----------



## BenedictGomez (Mar 4, 2020)

nhskier1969 said:


> I read a couple years ago about the demographic for skier fatalities  *The highest demo is men, 35-54, expert skiers, skiing intermediate trails.*



Males, yes.  Intermediate trails, yes. 

But I'm fairly sure the age is lower, and the skiers are intermediates (though it wouldn't shock me if many get falsely reported as expert).


----------



## Orca (Mar 5, 2020)

I hate it when I come out of Slidebrook looking like this


----------



## fbrissette (Mar 5, 2020)

Sick Bird Rider said:


> There are tree wells in the east, I can assure you. Fell in one head-first, not far off a marked trail at Jay Peak some years ago. Once my ski partners stopped laughing at my predicament, one of them pulled me out. Had they not been there, I might have suffocated, as the snow was piling up around my head and I was pretty stuck, and upside down.
> 
> What a sad story out of Stowe.


Having personally dug out a dead American from a tree well in Tremblant 20 years ago I can attest that there are indeed tree wells out east.  It was near the top, north side, on a small traverse trail.  He was 5 feet from the trail. Older guy, fat and likely out of shape.  His partner was trying to pull him out when we got there.  Took 4 of us to pull him out.  His face was blue.   I think of him every time I see a tree well.


----------



## bizarrefaith (Mar 6, 2020)

BenedictGomez said:


> Males, yes.  Intermediate trails, yes.
> 
> But I'm fairly sure the age is lower, and the skiers are intermediates (though it wouldn't shock me if many get falsely reported as expert).



Eh, neither would surprise me. Experts on intermediate trails may tend to ski faster than on more demanding terrain, be less focused, and more likely to have to abruptly avoid other skiers stopped in bad spots or skiing erratically. Skier/rider deaths is also such a tiny number drawing any conclusions drawn from historic trends probably isn't going to be very predictive.


----------

