# Chairlift Death



## Not Sure (Dec 30, 2016)

http://www.denverpost.com/2016/12/29/ski-granby-ranch-chairlift-fall/

Sad , Bar up ?


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## Smellytele (Dec 30, 2016)

I bet one or both of the children fell and the mother jumped in an attempt to save the child(ren).


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## dlague (Dec 31, 2016)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> http://www.denverpost.com/2016/12/29/ski-granby-ranch-chairlift-fall/
> 
> Sad , Bar up ?


What I find crazy is how many lifts in Colorado have no safety bars.  Loveland lifts do not have them, A Basin Pali lift does not have any, some at Eldora do not have them.  Gets a little freaky when the lift stops and the chair swings back and forth.  

In any case sad to see this especially at a small ski area.  This type of death does not occur often in fact 12 since 1973 across the country.

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## thetrailboss (Dec 31, 2016)

*Chair Fall Kills One Injures Two*

http://www.saminfo.com/headline-news/8775-mom-dies-two-children-injured-in-fall-from-chairlift

Thursday AM incident in which a Mom and two daughters fell from an express quad at Ski Granby Ranch in Colorado. Mom died an hour later at the hospital. 


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## Zermatt (Dec 31, 2016)

Any details as to what happened?

Really surprised more people don't fall off, especially little kids.


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## thetrailboss (Dec 31, 2016)

billo said:


> Any details as to what happened?
> 
> Really surprised more people don't fall off, especially little kids.



Sounds like nobody is talking. There were multiple "witnesses" but nothing reported as to what they saw. 

A lot of chairs here without bars, but they are slowly getting safety bars added. 


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## thetrailboss (Dec 31, 2016)

No new details here.....

http://www.denverpost.com/2016/12/30/mom-chairlift-death/


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## thetrailboss (Dec 31, 2016)

Sorry...duplicate


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## Not Sure (Dec 31, 2016)

dlague said:


> What I find crazy is how many lifts in Colorado have no safety bars.  Loveland lifts do not have them, A Basin Pali lift does not have any, some at Eldora do not have them.  Gets a little freaky when the lift stops and the chair swings back and forth.
> 
> In any case sad to see this especially at a small ski area.  This type of death does not occur often in fact 12 since 1973 across the country.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app



I quess you have softer snow out West LOL .

Very scary !  I was on a roll back when I was 14 ,scared the hell out of me . Went about 50' and stopped quickly my chair swung back and forth about 45 degrees both directions . I was looking down a 40' plus drop with the bar up . The kid I was riding up with insisted we leave the bar up , I cursed him out and have been pretty paranoid about keeping it down since.


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## Zermatt (Dec 31, 2016)

A 36" high deck needs a railing but chairlifts in CO don't. That is corruption.


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## kbird (Jan 2, 2017)

Wow very sad to read this. I doubt the mother left the bar up, I would be more inclined to believe they were bounced off.

That almost happen to a friend and I about 10 years ago when some kids in front of us started bouncing the chairs. We had to verbally threaten them to get them to stop, both of us almost fell 40+ feet! When we got to the top, we grabbed the kids and detained them until patrol arrived to escort them off the mountain.


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## dlague (Jan 2, 2017)

Delete it

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## thetrailboss (Jan 2, 2017)

dlague said:


> Delete it
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app



Tried. Can't on the app.


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## Hawkshot99 (Jan 2, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> Tried. Can't on the app.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone


We should ban the poster instead then!!!![emoji33] 

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## cdskier (Jan 2, 2017)

Interesting article...although some parts are confusing and poorly worded I think (seems to have been written by someone that doesn't understand the difference between a safety bar being up and down on a lift). - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ss-saw-mother-two-children-plummet-chair.html

Here's some quotes from the article from a witness:


> The witness, Allen McGirl from Greeley, who was three chairs back from the family, wrote on Facebook: 'I am so sad to have witnessed the 3 people fall off the chair lift at Granby Ranch this morning.
> 
> 'If only the mother would have lowered the safety bar, this would not have happened.
> 
> ...


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## Not Sure (Jan 2, 2017)

dlague said:


> Delete it
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7qnd-hdmgfk


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## skiNEwhere (Jan 3, 2017)

All ski areas except Loveland have slowly been phasing them out. Loveland bought a brand new, fixed grip lift a couple years ago; no bar. 

I don't see a bar helping out a kid though due to their size other than giving them to grab onto as they slide under.

Terrible news, regardless. Condolences


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## Abubob (Jan 3, 2017)

dlague said:


> What I find crazy is how many lifts in Colorado have no safety bars.



From the fuzzy photo posted it looks as this one does have safety bars - but no backs?

https://twitter.com/lancehernandez7/status/814593322199248896/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw


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## thetrailboss (Jan 3, 2017)

More information on the accident:

http://unofficialnetworks.com/2017/...xas-mothers-deadly-chairlift-fall-in-colorado


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## benski (Jan 3, 2017)

Snowbird has bars on all its lifts. Most of the lifts at Alta now have bars, though locals don't use them.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 3, 2017)

benski said:


> Snowbird has bars on all its lifts. Most of the lifts at Alta now have bars, though locals don't use them.



Yes.  Only Wildcat, Cecret, and Albion Doubles have no bars.  I imagine that insurers are requiring them now.


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## Hawkshot99 (Jan 3, 2017)

If I am by myself I will only use a bar 25% of the time. But I do like knowing the bar is there if I want it. When riding with others, I will let them dictate up or down.

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## thetrailboss (Jan 3, 2017)

uphillklimber said:


> It may be that the backs fold down when not in use to keep the seats snow free.
> 
> The big advantage of a bar, is that there is at least something to push against, other than air, to keep the kids in the seat.



I'm pretty sure that the chairs DO have backs.  You just can't see them in that picture.  Look below:






















Couple interesting notes.  First, it's a Leitner HSQ that is similar to the Flyer at Jay.  I don't think that many pure "Leitner" HSQs were built in the US.  Leitner and Poma merged shortly thereafter.  

Second, two of the articles mention witness reports that the chair swung into a sign or the tower.  Look closely at the pics and you will see odd cross-arm structures that "step down" towards the haul rope and some big signs on the towers.  It will be interesting to see if the chair was blowing in the wind, if Mom was sitting on the inside causing it to lean in, or if they were swinging the chair such that it hit the tower.  A long ways to go on this one I think in figuring out what happened and who is to blame.


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## dlague (Jan 3, 2017)

Every lift at Loveland have no safely bars.  The Pauli double at A Basin doesn't either and we have run across others else where around here.  I have height issues so it was a bit weird at first.  The local's never use the bars or very few.

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## drjeff (Jan 3, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> I'm pretty sure that the chairs DO have backs.  You just can't see them in that picture.  Look below:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Something just seems fishy about that report that the chair swung enough to hit some part of the tower and cause the Mom and her kids to fall off....

Those chairs, even before you put anyone on them, weigh over 200lbs a piece. The grip is designed to physically grip, and not rotate on the haul rope. It takes a breeze of roughly 25-30mph to even get a chair rocking 10 degrees or so in any direction. It takes a bunch of effort by a person to rock a chair, and frankly as a parent I couldn't fathom another parent, putting as much effort, if it's even possible, to physically cause a chair to rock the close to 30 degrees it would take to approach banging into part of the tower, let alone a mother with her 2 young kids on the chair with her!  Heck in almost now 40yrs of skiing and thousands upon thousands of chairlift rides in that time frame, only once has a chair I was riding banged into a tower, and that was on the old riblet summit double near the summit of Bromley, with a heavy, gusty post Nor'easter wind hammering the summit. And heck, those chairs literally had glorified "cow catchers" just below the sheave assemblies to stop the chairs themselves from contacting the tower!! 

It just feels like there's a significant, important key to this tragedy that is missing.      


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## Not Sure (Jan 3, 2017)

drjeff said:


> Something just seems fishy about that report that the chair swung enough to hit some part of the tower and cause the Mom and her kids to fall off....
> 
> Those chairs, even before you put anyone on them, weigh over 200lbs a piece. The grip is designed to physically grip, and not rotate on the haul rope. It takes a breeze of roughly 25-30mph to even get a chair rocking 10 degrees or so in any direction. It takes a bunch of effort by a person to rock a chair, and frankly as a parent I couldn't fathom another parent, putting as much effort, if it's even possible, to physically cause a chair to rock the close to 30 degrees it would take to approach banging into part of the tower, let alone a mother with her 2 young kids on the chair with her!  Heck in almost now 40yrs of skiing and thousands upon thousands of chairlift rides in that time frame, only once has a chair I was riding banged into a tower, and that was on the old riblet summit double near the summit of Bromley, with a heavy, gusty post Nor'easter wind hammering the summit. And heck, those chairs literally had glorified "cow catchers" just below the sheave assemblies to stop the chairs themselves from contacting the tower!!
> 
> ...



There was a recent death at Hunter from a fall where the skier hooked the lift ladder with their ski and was pulled off. Not sure if the bar was up or down ? An extended ski could hit the sign or pole ?


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## SIKSKIER (Jan 4, 2017)

Seema pretty clear to me from the eyewitness that the chair hit the tower with no safety bar down.That would do it.Why would the guy watching it lie about the chair swinging and hitting the tower?


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## drjeff (Jan 4, 2017)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> There was a recent death at Hunter from a fall where the skier hooked the lift ladder with their ski and was pulled off. Not sure if the bar was up or down ? An extended ski could hit the sign or pole ?



I'm sure it could.

Scenario wise, I'm guessing (110% SPECULATING based on common stereotypes here!!)that this mom wasn't on a set of long skis with her DIN's cranked high enough not to release if her ski hit the tower.  Also, most parents, mom's especially from what I see regularly, if they're skiing with multiple children and no other adult, tend to ride a chair sitting in between the kids, rather than out on the side of the chair. 

 Like I said, this is 110% speculation on my part, and why, from what I've scene and experienced first hand in my own almost 40 years of skiing, something just seems really funky here than led to this tragedy


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 4, 2017)

I agree with Dr. Jeff that this seems odd, given that in addition to the mother, *BOTH* children fell.  I can think of "bar up scenarios" where one child slips and the mother falls attempting to save her, or there's a chair hit and maybe 1 or 2 fall off, but the fact that all 3 departed the chair does seem really odd.  Must have been incredibly violent if so.


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## dlague (Jan 4, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> I agree with Dr. Jeff that this seems odd, given that in addition to the mother, *BOTH* children fell.  I can think of "bar up scenarios" where one child slips and the mother falls attempting to save her, or there's a chair hit and maybe 1 or 2 fall off, but the fact that all 3 departed the chair does seem really odd.  Must have been incredibly violent if so.


They may have been a reaction to grab something hence taking to full Chair.  It is amazing how many people come here to ski from Texas.  Most make 1 trip maybe 2 per year, so their experiences are limited.  Nothing really talks about there skills obviously the children have less experience but the Mom, well that is unclear.  Are safety briefings going to be part of the skiing experience?  Vail is heading in that direction.

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## Fallingdown (Jan 4, 2017)

I don't know why anyone would ride without the bar down. So many things could happen that result in you falling out of the chair. I feel so sorry for these kids and mother. It is such a tragedy.


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## deadheadskier (Jan 4, 2017)

Fallingdown said:


> I don't know why anyone would ride without the bar down. So many things could happen that result in you falling out of the chair. I feel so sorry for these kids and mother. It is such a tragedy.


There are people who believe that the bar being down prevents them from being able to jump if there is a problem and that jumping would improve the chance of survival or reduce injury instead of falling to the ground inside the chair.  At least that's the rationale I've heard people explain behind their choice in riding chairs with the bar up.  


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## Jully (Jan 4, 2017)

uphillklimber said:


> Whatever reason someone gives for leaving the bar up, they do so at their choice (and peril). This sounds so much like the 'not wearing a seatbelt, so if I am in an accident, I can get out of the car faster before it starts to burn'.
> 
> Whatever the whole story ends up being, it is a sad story all around.



I was about to bring the seatbelt example up. Definitely a tragic story though.


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## njdiver85 (Jan 4, 2017)

Just wanted to add that a mother sitting on the end and then two much lighter weight kids sitting next to her creates a pretty decent weight imbalance in the chair.  Just another potential contributing factor.  Add in the fact that the bar was not down, and an unusually strong chair movement due to a fast stoppage.  I've seen many cases where the lifty corrects the weight imbalance by asking people to spread out on the chair, but also plenty of times where two people are to the far side of a 4 person chair and the lifty doesn't catch it or ignores it, and the thing is terribly lopsided.


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## dlague (Jan 4, 2017)

njdiver85 said:


> Just wanted to add that a mother sitting on the end and then two much lighter weight kids sitting next to her creates a pretty decent weight imbalance in the chair.  Just another potential contributing factor.  Add in the fact that the bar was not down, and an unusually strong chair movement due to a fast stoppage.  I've seen many cases where the lifty corrects the weight imbalance by asking people to spread out on the chair, but also plenty of times where two people are to the far side of a 4 person chair and the lifty doesn't catch it or ignores it, and the thing is terribly lopsided.


Should lefties see that and correct it?  Or is that not in their duties as assigned?

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## Smellytele (Jan 4, 2017)

dlague said:


> Should lefties see that and correct it?  Or is that not in their duties as assigned?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app



Why can't righties see it and correct it?


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## dlague (Jan 4, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> Why can't righties see it and correct it?


Haha darn autocorrect!

Should lifties see a potential for unbalanced chair and correct it?  Or is that not in their duties as assigned?  Cause the lift line to be slow?  Or it does not really matter?

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## Not Sure (Jan 4, 2017)

njdiver85 said:


> Just wanted to add that a mother sitting on the end and then two much lighter weight kids sitting next to her creates a pretty decent weight imbalance in the chair.  Just another potential contributing factor.  Add in the fact that the bar was not down, and an unusually strong chair movement due to a fast stoppage.  I've seen many cases where the lifty corrects the weight imbalance by asking people to spread out on the chair, but also plenty of times where two people are to the far side of a 4 person chair and the lifty doesn't catch it or ignores it, and the thing is terribly lopsided.



 I wonder if ski clothes and came into play .What was the weather like at the time?  Back in the 80s I had a jacket that was faster than my K2 712's. Ended up sliding through an icy mogul field taking a beating, never wore that jacket again! I don't buy jackets often so I'm not up with current styles but what I wear has decent arresting  characteristics .


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## VTKilarney (Jan 4, 2017)

deadheadskier said:


> There are people who believe that the bar being down prevents them from being able to jump if there is a problem and that jumping would improve the chance of survival or reduce injury instead of falling to the ground inside the chair.  At least that's the rationale I've heard people explain behind their choice in riding chairs with the bar up.


Kind of like the people who don't wear seat belts because they believe that seat belts can be more dangerous in certain accidents, such as submerging in water.  These people are not at all smart, and certainly don't know how to weigh risks to achieve the highest degree of overall safety.


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## Smellytele (Jan 5, 2017)

Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> I wonder if ski clothes and came into play .What was the weather like at the time?  Back in the 80s I had a jacket that was faster than my K2 712's. Ended up sliding through an icy mogul field taking a beating, never wore that jacket again! I don't buy jackets often so I'm not up with current styles but what I wear has decent arresting  characteristics .


Mole skin jackets for all!


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## burnsfp (Jan 5, 2017)

When you are sitting on a lift with people you don't know and you are thinking, "how long should I wait before I reach for the bar".


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## dlague (Jan 5, 2017)

burnsfp said:


> When you are sitting on a lift with people you don't know and you are thinking, "how long should I wait before I reach for the bar".



We were on a lift on Friday where we did not put the bar down and they people next to us (6 pack chair) had said they wanted the bar down and waited for me to do it.  In the end, we were about to unload  - they did not bother to put it up and I ended up doing it.  A$$#0!&s


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## DoublePlanker (Jan 5, 2017)

Put the fucking bar down.


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## jerseydaze (Jan 5, 2017)

DoublePlanker said:


> Put the fucking bar down.



2nd this add extra put the fucking bar down with kids.Kids bounce squirm get distracted act like kids put bar down.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 10, 2017)

Update:  

http://www.saminfo.com/headline-new...lity-involved-electrical-problem-tower-strike

All I can say is wow.  



> The investigation into the fatal chairlift accident at Ski Granby Ranch Dec. 29 has “identified issues within the chairlift’s electrical qickdraw express esizedrive/control system that contributed to a rare dynamic event that occurred on the lift at the time of the incident,” according to a report from the Colorado Passenger Tramway Safety Board. In addition, the report said that the chair in which a Texas mom and her two daughters were riding struck a lift tower a third of the way up the mountain before the three fell 25 feet to the ground.





> The CPTSB report provides the first official details of what led up to the fall. The report notes that “the circumstances indicated that environmental factors, weather and the occupants of (the chair) did not contribute to the cause of the incident. The facts of the incident show that, on Dec. 29, 2016, an unreasonable hazard existed in the continued operation of the lift.


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## Jully (Jan 10, 2017)

Hold up - what? A rare dynamic event so the lift can now only be run using its diesel backup drive? Interesting.


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## Smellytele (Jan 10, 2017)

Strange it only affected that one chair. Not sure I would ride that lift seeing they are allowing it to be used. Testing it with passengers as they ramp it up to 800 feet per minute...


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## bigbog (Jan 10, 2017)

dlague said:


> What I find crazy is how many lifts in Colorado have no safety bars.  Loveland lifts do not have them, A Basin Pali lift does not have any, some at Eldora do not have them.  Gets a little freaky when the lift stops and the chair swings back and forth............



I hear ya' on that.  I once had the priviledge of riding up on the superquad chair with three late teen, testosterone-laden CVA physicists and they left the bar up...  I was on the end so I went with it...just Once!;-)  I was hanging onto everything I could find...and it did stop once..  That time I enjoyed settling back into the backseat...  The momentum of a stop, without a bar down can lead to everybody going over the gunwale.


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## cdskier (Jan 10, 2017)

Smellytele said:


> Strange it only affected that one chair.



I find this strange as well. How does that happen? I'm curious to hear more details about this "rare dynamic event".


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## drjeff (Jan 10, 2017)

Crazy!   

I'm guessing that any pure Leitner and/or Leitner/Poma lifts of roughly that same vintage will be under some serious scrutiny of their electrical drive systems to make sure that this isn't a design flaw instead of just a terrible, one time event!!


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## drjeff (Jan 10, 2017)

cdskier said:


> I find this strange as well. How does that happen? I'm curious to hear more details about this "rare dynamic event".



Might have to do more with the position of the chair on the haul rope at the time of the event.  I'm sure as we all know there are some places when a chair suddenly stops, that the amount of bouncing/swinging is far more pronounced than others....


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## BenedictGomez (Jan 10, 2017)

> The investigation into the fatal chairlift accident at Ski Granby Ranch Dec. 29 has “identified* issues within the chairlift’s electrical qickdraw express esizedrive/control system* that contributed to a rare dynamic event that occurred on the lift at the time of the incident,”



Can someone put this in English....


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## thetrailboss (Jan 10, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Can someone put this in English....



Exactly.  They did a good job describing the injuries, etc but NOT the suspected cause.  

Poma/Leitner is really nervous right now.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 10, 2017)

drjeff said:


> Crazy!
> 
> I'm guessing that any pure Leitner and/or Leitner/Poma lifts of roughly that same vintage will be under some serious scrutiny of their electrical drive systems to make sure that this isn't a design flaw instead of just a terrible, one time event!!



One such lift: the Freezer at Jay.  Leitner lift.  One of the few I know of in the US.


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## VTKilarney (Jan 10, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> One such lift: the Freezer at Jay.  Leitner lift.  One of the few I know of in the US.



Jay can ill afford to lose the Freezer.


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## Not Sure (Jan 10, 2017)

BenedictGomez said:


> Can someone put this in English....



Momentary power interruption allowing a quick rollback ?

I find it hard to believe that all three slipped under the bar ! Had to be up!


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## dlague (Jan 10, 2017)

VTKilarney said:


> Jay can ill afford to lose the Freezer.


Appropriately named!


Siliconebobsquarepants said:


> Momentary power interruption allowing a quick rollback ?
> 
> I find it hard to believe that all three slipped under the bar ! Had to be up!


I agree!

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## Keelhauled (Jan 10, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> One such lift: the Freezer at Jay.  Leitner lift.  One of the few I know of in the US.



Fernie and Lake Louise in Canada have Leitners too.

I have read elsewhere that Quickdraw's drive control's were replaced prior to this season, and the new system caused the lift to speed up/slow down too quickly, which caused the "dynamic event."  The physics involved still escape me--I would expect vertical/lateral motion in the line rather than side to side, but I suppose that would be good news for other operators of Leitner lifts, although very bad news for the company that installed the new drive.


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## Breakout12 (Jan 11, 2017)

I was at Blue Mountain in Ontario recently, and the lifts have what look like child safety devices on them.  There is a plastic tray-like piece on top of the bar that folds down in front of the passenger and it appears that the purpose is to block the extra space where kids would slide under the bar.  It looks shaped for them to lean their arms on.  

Unfortunately, none of the bars had foot rests! I find that my knees get sore after a while from the extra weight of the skis and boots, so a foot rest is an added benefit.  I don’t understand why people wouldn’t use the bar.  

As an aside, when I was getting on a chair, I had reached back and grabbed the upright, and another passenger was so quick in bringing the bar down that it smashed my arm between the post and the safety bar.  I mean, we weren’t more than a couple of feet past sitting down.


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## dlague (Jan 11, 2017)

Breakout12 said:


> I was at Blue Mountain in Ontario recently, and the lifts have what look like child safety devices on them.  There is a plastic tray-like piece on top of the bar that folds down in front of the passenger and it appears that the purpose is to block the extra space where kids would slide under the bar.  It looks shaped for them to lean their arms on.
> 
> Unfortunately, none of the bars had foot rests! I find that my knees get sore after a while from the extra weight of the skis and boots, so a foot rest is an added benefit.  I don’t understand why people wouldn’t use the bar.
> 
> As an aside, when I was getting on a chair, I had reached back and grabbed the upright, and another passenger was so quick in bringing the bar down that it smashed my arm between the post and the safety bar.  I mean, we weren’t more than a couple of feet past sitting down.


I was amazed at how many lifts I have ever been on in Colorado that do not have safety bars at all.  Some resorts it is a lift or two but at Loveland there are no safety bars on all of their lifts.  Felt weird at first but seems normal now.


uphillklimber said:


> I always find that a courtesy "Is everyone ready" smoothes out this scenario.


Totally agree!

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## crystalmountainskier (Jan 20, 2017)

Some answers:
https://liftblog.com/2017/01/20/leitner-poma-to-install-new-drive-on-quickdraw-at-granby-ranch/


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## MommaBear (Jan 21, 2017)

Couple of comments from a Mom.  With a 9 and 12 year old, I would not have been sitting in the middle, I would have been on the end.  But my choice is based on my kids having been skiing since they were 4 and they prefer to sit together.  As for the bar, I've learned to tout the Mom card - previously when the kids were with me, and now out of habit.  "Mom on board, putting the bar down, every one ready?"  I"m sure the "kids" at Carinthia don't appreciate it when I join from the singles line, but so be it.  Have yet to be told "no".


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## thetrailboss (Jan 21, 2017)

http://saminfo.com/headline-news/88...cation-led-to-granby-ranch-chairlift-fatality


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## MommaBear (Jan 21, 2017)

thetrailboss said:


> http://saminfo.com/headline-news/88...cation-led-to-granby-ranch-chairlift-fatality
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using AlpineZone



Doesn't sound good for the independent contractor.


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## thetrailboss (Jan 21, 2017)

MommaBear said:


> Doesn't sound good for the independent contractor.



Yep. Notice how LP is declared off the hook.


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## machski (Jan 21, 2017)

Something to be said for using the OEM for upgrades/repairs and not subbing out to lowest bidder.

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## Sons of Thunder (Jan 23, 2017)

MommaBear said:


> Couple of comments from a Mom.  With a 9 and 12 year old, I would not have been sitting in the middle, I would have been on the end.  But my choice is based on my kids having been skiing since they were 4 and they prefer to sit together.  As for the bar, I've learned to tout the Mom card - previously when the kids were with me, and now out of habit.  "Mom on board, putting the bar down, every one ready?"  I"m sure the "kids" at Carinthia don't appreciate it when I join from the singles line, but so be it.  Have yet to be told "no".



I thought I heard that parents should sit in the middle with kids on the outside so as to keep the chair as level as possible. But I only have one child so she always sits on my right where I can more easily see her especially when getting on and off (riding regular). Different dynamic with two kids I guess (don't know how you do it!).

And I've been on chairs where everyone agreed to leave the bar up, and where everyone agreed to put the bar down. Never heard anyone ever say 'no leave the bar up.' I think even the parkrats know to pick their battles lol.

Yeah definitely sounds bad for the company that did the maintenance.


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## catskills (Jan 25, 2017)

uphillklimber said:


> Interesting. But has anyone found an article stating specifically what went wrong?



If you want specifics these guys on skilfits.org have specifics.  Not sure I can follow the details but that third party company may be in big trouble. 

See post #40 here 
http://www.skilifts.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=10775&st=20

_Update 1/10/17:_  I’ve heard that a third-party company called Bald Eagle Lifts installed  a new ABB drive last summer that was unsuitable for this lift and  ramped up and down too quickly, causing the dynamic event.

Let me clarify what I mean by "speed measurement error" fault. The drive  has a programmed ramp from zero speed to max motor rpms. The tach  should produce the same ramp when the motor is commanded to ramp up.  Speed measurement error is the different between the programmed ramp and  actual speed.


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## Jcb890 (Jan 25, 2017)

MommaBear said:


> Couple of comments from a Mom.  With a 9 and 12 year old, I would not have been sitting in the middle, I would have been on the end.  But my choice is based on my kids having been skiing since they were 4 and they prefer to sit together.  As for the bar, I've learned to tout the Mom card - previously when the kids were with me, and now out of habit.  "Mom on board, putting the bar down, every one ready?"  I"m sure the "kids" at Carinthia don't appreciate it when I join from the singles line, but so be it.  Have yet to be told "no".


You'd have to be a special kind of asshole to refuse to allow someone (anyone) to put the bar down.

Sometimes I don't put the bar down, but if there's a footrest, I almost always do only because its easier on the body, less wear and tear.

What bugs me is when the lift operator or a person riding the lift pulls the bar down when people aren't ready and the bar nails you on the head.  Luckily my helmet absorbed the blow, but if I didn't have one on, I'd be absolutely pissed! (and possibly concussed)


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## dlague (Jan 25, 2017)

Jcb890 said:


> You'd have to be a special kind of asshole to refuse to allow someone (anyone) to put the bar down.
> 
> Sometimes I don't put the bar down, but if there's a footrest, I almost always do only because its easier on the body, less wear and tear.
> 
> What bugs me is when the lift operator or a person riding the lift pulls the bar down when people aren't ready and the bar nails you on the head.  Luckily my helmet absorbed the blow, but if I didn't have one on, I'd be absolutely pissed! (and possibly concussed)


Another good reason to wear a helmet.

Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Jully (Jan 25, 2017)

dlague said:


> Another good reason to wear a helmet.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app



Hah! I'm always shocked at how _fast_ some people put the bar down! Not when they put it down with respect to loading, but the actual speed with which they pull it down. A concussion could definitely be possible if it hit you in the right spot without a helmet on!


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## Jcb890 (Jan 25, 2017)

dlague said:


> Another good reason to wear a helmet.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930P using AlpineZone mobile app


Absolutely!  I didn't wear a helmet for years when I first started.  Then one day I thought to myself "Do I actually have any real/good reasons for why I'm not wearing a helmet?" and I didn't come up with any good reasons not to wear one.  I've been wearing a helmet since and it kind of seems stupid not to.


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## Jcb890 (Jan 25, 2017)

Jully said:


> Hah! I'm always shocked at how _fast_ some people put the bar down! Not when they put it down with respect to loading, but the actual speed with which they pull it down. A concussion could definitely be possible if it hit you in the right spot without a helmet on!


This instance I'm talking about was rather funny (only because we had on helmets).  I'm almost 100% positive the lift operator slammed the bar down on us.  My wife, my mother and I all hopped on the lift.  They both like to put the bar down, so I knew the bar would be coming down.  The problem was that none of us expected it so early, so we all got nailed on the head with the bar with some force and we all looked at each other and started yelling at one another accusing each other of being the people who pulled the bar down early.  I honestly think we all may have gotten concussed if we did not have helmets, it still stung a bit even with the helmet on, so the bar hit pretty hard/solidly.


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## Jully (Jan 25, 2017)

uphillklimber said:


> It is not unnoticed by me that some of the faster bar down people lift the bar up 4 towers from the top. I like to wait until 1 tower from the top, but if someone is sitting on their poles, they need a little extra time to pull their poles free.



4 towers from the top is pretty ridiculous. Its funny how some people are so eager to put it down when you are 5 feet off the group leaving the terminal, but put it up real early up top when you are often at your highest point (think Skyline at Sugarloaf).

I sit on my poles, but it doesn't take me 4 towers to get them free! I always do it after the last tower unless it is a tower that's 3 feet from the top terminal on a fixed grip...


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## dlague (Jan 25, 2017)

Jully said:


> 4 towers from the top is pretty ridiculous. Its funny how some people are so eager to put it down when you are 5 feet off the group leaving the terminal, but put it up real early up top when you are often at your highest point (think Skyline at Sugarloaf).
> 
> I sit on my poles, but it doesn't take me 4 towers to get them free! I always do it after the last tower unless it is a tower that's 3 feet from the top terminal on a fixed grip...



I take my poles out while getting off the lift.  But you are right some pull down the bar fast with out notice.  The other one is someone that wants the bar down, expects you to do it and then expects you to put it up.


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## drjeff (Jan 25, 2017)

Especially on high-speed chairs, you'd be surprised how many times a "quick bar down" isn't from a person you're riding the lift with, but with someone from the group behind you grabbing/pushing the bar on your chair as they slide out to the load line!!

As for fixed grips, sometimes us tall guys (I'm 6'3" before I get into my boots and up on my skis) will cause it by the bump of the chair from the liftie causing the chair to pitch forward a bit more to have the seat pitch in a way that our rear ends can find it ;-)

Sent from my XT1254 using AlpineZone mobile app


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## Smellytele (Jan 25, 2017)

drjeff said:


> Especially on high-speed chairs, you'd be surprised how many times a "quick bar down" isn't from a person you're riding the lift with, but with someone from the group behind you grabbing/pushing the bar on your chair as they slide out to the load line!!/QUOTE]
> 
> I have never had that happen


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