VAIL SUCKS

[thetrailboss]

Trying not to get political, but European government money gets mixed in for ski resort investment. If the US pulls out of NATO and they have to pay there own way, will government subsidies for ski resorts dry up in Europe.

I was going to say that comparing American ski resorts to European ones is like an apples to oranges situation. That is because almost all American resorts are private ventures while a good number of European ones are publicly owned (or public/private entities). Additionally, in a lot of places, ski "lifts" are considered public transportation infrastructure. Additionally, a lot of resorts are just ski areas--the hotels, shops, restaurants, and even some of the ski and ride schools, are separate entities not owned or operated by the ski area itself.

 

[BenedictGomez]

The kid's 10 week lesson clinic cost increased by 3.9%, so Vail honored its promise to again increase pass & lesson prices in excess of inflation.

Last season the clinic price increase was 5.0%.

EDIT: If you're wondering how I know this, we have to pay for the program 8 months ahead of its start time.

 

[deadheadskier]

The timing is not uncommon. We had to sign up for Gunstock seasonal programs during the third week of March for the following season. It sold out every year fairly quickly.

We are taking a break after four years. Mainly because we want the flexibility to roam a bit more on Indy vs being tied to Gunstock 9 Sundays a season. I'll take the cost savings and use it on hotels instead.

 

[BenedictGomez]

We are taking a break after four years. Mainly because we want the flexibility to roam a bit more on Indy vs being tied to Gunstock 9 Sundays a season. I'll take the cost savings and use it on hotels instead.

How much is the 9 week kiddie session at Gunstock, and what were the daily hours?

 

[deadheadskier]

How much is the 9 week kiddie session at Gunstock, and what were the daily hours?

After tipping the coaches, it worked out to roughly $1500 a season total for two kids this past year. There were price increases all 4 years. 1st year was probably around $1300 all in for the both of them. Their sessions were 2 hours in length. So, 18 hours of coaching per kid, per year.

 

[thebigo]

wow, in the interest of information sharing, nine year old daughter is around $2100 all in at FSC. Program runs 50 days, breakdown is roughly: 25% gates at mittersill, 50% free ski cannon with coaches/friends, 25% traveling to other mountains with friends and coaches. sign up and payment is due before the end of june for returning families. day runs 8 - 3, guess I am paying $7 / hr.

 

[parahelia]

$2100 is a terrific price for what you're getting with FSC, wow.

When my kids first started at River Runners at SR in 2018, it was $1300 for 35 days of coaching; 8:45-2 Saturdays (including lunch) and 8:45-12 Sundays (no lunch). Now it's $2300 for 30 days of coaching, 8:45-1. A great profit center for the resorts given that the instructors make minimum wage. My daughter coached last season, you learn a lot of skills herding 3- and 4-year-olds around a mountain. As the parent, I loved having a reason to go to the mountain every weekend no matter the weather.

 

[BenedictGomez]

I have to say, I suspected I was getting a good deal at PC, but DHS' cost-per-kiddie rate helps confirm it. It also is probably why Vail heavily restricts it and it's like getting U2 tickets back in the old days pre-internet. And I like how they run it too, once your kid is in, they're "in", you get first dibs every year. That part also simultaneously sucks too I guess, because there's more local kiddie demand than Vail absorbs, because they'd rather charge ~$240 to tourists for a 3 hour lesson. Are these other mountains also limiting the number of local kids in these programs so they can charge vacationer kids more money?

EDIT: Never thought to look at it on a per-hour basis like @thebigo did with Cannon, but it works out to $27.58/hour at Park City with the all day 8:45 - 2:45 program, which, while not $7/hour is still pretty fantastic, and that price includes a legitimate lunch at PC each week too.

 

[thetrailboss]

I have to say, I suspected I was getting a good deal at PC, but DHS' cost-per-kiddie rate helps confirm it. It also is probably why Vail heavily restricts it and it's like getting U2 tickets back in the old days pre-internet. And I like how they run it too, once your kid is in, they're "in", you get first dibs every year. That part also simultaneously sucks too I guess, because there's more local kiddie demand than Vail absorbs, because they'd rather charge ~$240 to tourists for a 3 hour lesson. Are these other mountains also limiting the number of local kids in these programs so they can charge vacationer kids more money?

EDIT: Never thought to look at it on a per-hour basis like @thebigo did with Cannon, but it works out to $27.58/hour at Park City with the all day 8:45 - 2:45 program, which, while not $7/hour is still pretty fantastic, and that price includes a legitimate lunch at PC each week too.

Well, I think there may be an apples to oranges comparison here. The FSC program is a junior racing training program. if I’m understanding them correctly. IIRC your kids are in a weekly lesson program (learn to ski/ride).

 

[BenedictGomez]

Well, I think there may be an apples to oranges comparison here. The FSC program is a junior racing training program. if I’m understanding them correctly. IIRC your kids are in a weekly lesson program (learn to ski/ride).

Maybe? I dont know much about those kiddie racing programs, though at PC it's not all that much more expensive than the weekly clinic programs.

I actually negged that race team stuff for my kid next season as I thought PC was a bit too aggressive with it in terms of trying to recruit some of the local 6 year olds who started skiing at 3/4. The people are super-nice & way qualified, but it just weirded me out a little & that race stuff seems intense. It's like both weekend days instead of just one full weekend day, then on top of that there are night sessions over at the Olympic park on those Olympic training runs. Just seems a bit much for a 2nd grader IMHO.

 

[deadheadskier]

This year Gunstock finally gave returning families first right of refusal. Me and a few others had been asking for it the past few years. Go figure it's the year we decide to drop out.

I agree on the race programs being too much. I offered it to my son a few years back and he saw the kids always waiting in line to run gates and said, no thanks.

I'm fairly against specialized / club sports in general for young kids. I think Norway has it right. They don't do it there until kids are 15. They have no shortage of great ski racers, hockey and soccer players.

 

[machski]

This year Gunstock finally gave returning families first right of refusal. Me and a few others had been asking for it the past few years. Go figure it's the year we decide to drop out.

I agree on the race programs being too much. I offered it to my son a few years back and he saw the kids always waiting in line to run gates and said, no thanks.

I'm fairly against specialized / club sports in general for young kids. I think Norway has it right. They don't do it there until kids are 15. They have no shortage of great ski racers, hockey and soccer players.

Big difference is the State in Norway probably funds those athletes when they specialize at 15 and beyond. In the USA, that's pretty much on the athlete's themselves so you have to gain traction for $$ at a much younger age.

 

[AdironRider]

Yeah that is not a fair comparison ultimately. That said, look at this chart from the US Ski Team for development. They suggest 2!!!! year olds to be banging gates and running drills with coaches (25% of on snow time with coached freeskiing the remaining 75%). There has got to be a happy medium in there somewhere.

https://www.usskiandsnowboard.org/sites/default/files/files-resources/files/2017-11/Freeski%20Training%20Systems%2011-16-17_1.pdf

 

[deadheadskier]

Im not talking about the funding and cost. I'm talking about Norway's general philosophy that kids should participate in a variety of sports all throughout adolescence and focus on having fun before maybe specializing at one sport come Highschool if they are gifted. They are showing that you don't need to start grueling training in elementary school to achieve greatness.

There are 3rd and 4th graders on my son's U10 Lacrosse team that participate in elite programs that go year round and travel at least a weekend a month to Long Island, Baltimore etc for tournaments. They spend their school vacations doing "voluntary" camps. 9 and 10 year olds!! That's ridiculous to me. And some of the ski racing club commitments would be just as all consuming if not for the snow melting.

Hard pass

 

[thebigo]

It depends on whether it is driven by the parents or the kid. Our job as parents is to expose our kids to a wide range of activities, then support their passion. Our nine year old daughter enjoys FSC but is more interested in the social side and becoming the best all mountain skier possible, she attends every free ski session but often cuts the gate sessions short or takes the day off. 13 year old daughter did two years of dev, then two years of freestyle before trying racing. From her first run through a course, all the kid has wanted to do in life is train and race. She also runs track and plays volleyball but is the first to tell anyone, track and volleyball are about time with friends and staying active during the offseason.

 

[thebigo]

$2100 is a terrific price for what you're getting with FSC, wow.

that price includes the volunteer commitment, price is $2K higher if commitment is not met. My wife does fundraising and sets up off snow social events for the kids, I announced a few days during U18 Nationals due to a notoriously booming voice to get the discount.

 

[thetrailboss]

Im not talking about the funding and cost. I'm talking about Norway's general philosophy that kids should participate in a variety of sports all throughout adolescence and focus on having fun before maybe specializing at one sport come Highschool if they are gifted. They are showing that you don't need to start grueling training in elementary school to achieve greatness.

There are 3rd and 4th graders on my son's U10 Lacrosse team that participate in elite programs that go year round and travel at least a weekend a month to Long Island, Baltimore etc for tournaments. They spend their school vacations doing "voluntary" camps. 9 and 10 year olds!! That's ridiculous to me. And some of the ski racing club commitments would be just as all consuming if not for the snow melting.

Hard pass

I agree. I am also disturbed by the number of folks who are profiting off of the 'Club Sport' phenomenon. My daughter chose to try volleyball and loved it (in sixth grade). She's done three years of club now and loves it. But I am blown away but how many folks are now finding empty warehouse space, creating an LLC, getting a few coaches, and charging folks thousands of dollars per kid for the privilege of playing.

And if you don't believe me, watch this video:

 

[deadheadskier]

Absolutely. It's more the "industry" that's become of youth sports that irks me. Not the parents supporting their kids chasing a passion. Nothing wrong with that. But a lot of these programs main (unstated) goal is to generate revenue. They work really hard to market their program as the pathway to developing the next Messi so they can profit more and more.

 

[BenedictGomez]

There are 3rd and 4th graders on my son's U10 Lacrosse team that participate in elite programs that go year round and travel at least a weekend a month to Long Island, Baltimore etc for tournaments. They spend their school vacations doing "voluntary" camps. 9 and 10 year olds!! That's ridiculous to me.

Not only that, but my guess is for probably at least 1/3 of them, it's the ONLY sport they play. Parents are forcing kids to specialize in only 1 sport at a ridiculously young age in, "Jack of all trades, master of none" psychology. It just seems nuts to me.

My daughter had a classmate last year who logged over 100 days on snow at Deer Valley, as a kindergartner! The local news even did a story on it. The parents claim all the child wants to do is ski, but I have a tough time buying the parents arent behind this pushing him.


EDIT: Here's the story, you be the judge, but I have a tough time believing this is kindergartner-driven.

Kindergartner reaches 100 days at Deer Valley - Park Record

Will Halcott has been working his way up to 100 days on skis for years now—an impressive feat for the boy who just turned six.

www.parkrecord.com

 

[LonghornSkier]

This year Gunstock finally gave returning families first right of refusal. Me and a few others had been asking for it the past few years. Go figure it's the year we decide to drop out.

I agree on the race programs being too much. I offered it to my son a few years back and he saw the kids always waiting in line to run gates and said, no thanks.

I'm fairly against specialized / club sports in general for young kids. I think Norway has it right. They don't do it there until kids are 15. They have no shortage of great ski racers, hockey and soccer players.

It's a myth that Norway doesn't allow club teams. Haaland, Sorloth, Ryerson, etc all played for the academies of Norwegian clubs from an elementary school age.