New/Renewed Areas

[Sparky]

It may just be me, but there seems to be a lot of activity in ski area development/ownership right now. I’ve seen posts concerning interest in Hogback, the area next to Magic (Timber Ridge?) Haystack has been bought Burke is changing hands, Saddleback, Camelback. For an industry that claims to have had zero growth things certainly seem to be changing. Could this mean a resurgent in the sport or just a reason to build more condos? Is the secondary home/real estate market driving this interest? If it is is that a bad thing?

Does anybody know of any other areas changing hands or reopening (I guess NELSAP would have that info but I can’t get past Surf Control to check it out) or any new areas, whether they are being developed as private clubs?

 

[thetrailboss]

It may just be me, but there seems to be a lot of activity in ski area development/ownership right now. I’ve seen posts concerning interest in Hogback, the area next to Magic (Timber Ridge?) Haystack has been bought Burke is changing hands, Saddleback, Camelback. For an industry that claims to have had zero growth things certainly seem to be changing. Could this mean a resurgent in the sport or just a reason to build more condos? Is the secondary home/real estate market driving this interest? If it is is that a bad thing?

It's the latter. Real Estate boom. Sugarbush is selling timeshares...13 weeks for ONLY $130K . Or you can buy from $1-1.6 million :blink: This is the second-wave of real estate development at areas who are in the hopes of trying to sustain $$$$ for their operations. De ja vu...same thing in the early-mid 1980's and when the bubble burst, a lot of areas went under including Burke who put too much $$$ into condos and not enough into the mountain.

Does anybody know of any other areas changing hands or reopening (I guess NELSAP would have that info but I can’t get past Surf Control to check it out) or any new areas, whether they are being developed as private clubs?

Whaleback is in the works. Not for condos, but as a freestyle camp. Word had it that the Highlands in Northfield was going to reopen as a Mtn Bike place. Several other places, including Maple Valley, are on the block as well (trying to cash in on the high property values).

 

[tree_skier]

Haystack for 5 mil started the recent interest in ski areas. However Haystack was strickly a real estate development deal with entry level properties starting at $750,000 and up into the multi million dollar price range. Yes the developers know what they are doing in the real estate market (not sure about the ski area market). IMHO alot of the rest of the for sale business is a pipe dream of current owners trying to stike it rich.
Haystack is semi unique in that
1. Mount Snow is 5 mins. up the road
2. It is the closest major area to NYC even closer then Flatton
3. The developer have done similarly priced developments in the area already.
4. Haystack was fully operational last season (lifts up to date on certs., upper lodge functioning etc.)
5. Owners already own golf course to partner into the package.
6. The plan isn't for the ski area to be the major income producer but only a draw to the real estate.

Thus once the real estate is built out I think you may see Haystack return to Mount Snow but unfortunately 20+ years into the future.

 

[loafer89]

Do not leave out Black Mountain Of Maine, they got that big grant from the Libra Foundation, and went from an obscure place with 440' vertical to 1,100'

It's a decent place to ski with dirt cheap prices.

 

[ctenidae]

I'd say real estate is absolutely driving things- ASC doesn't make any money on the skiing side- it's all from lodging and real estate. As a division, I don't think the ski operations part has ever turned a profit (not sure ASC as a whole has, either :0 ).

I'm actually wondering if it might not be worth it to pick up land nearish teh new/renewed areas, through a cabin on it with a fireplace, and rent that bad boy out all season (except, of course, when it's used as the AZ base lodge...

 

[Greg]

I'm actually wondering if it might not be worth it to pick up land nearish teh new/renewed areas, through a cabin on it with a fireplace, and rent that bad boy out all season (except, of course, when it's used as the AZ base lodge...

Something like this is a short-term (i.e. 3-5 years) plan with a buddy of mine.

 

[thetrailboss]

IMHO alot of the rest of the for sale business is a pipe dream of current owners trying to stike it rich.

You're exactly right. Folks trying to sell Maple Valley, Wildcat, and Roundtop (I believe) all have the same big and hopes for more $$$$. The real estate market is hot, so sell...it may collapse which will further hurt the ski industry. Nothing but real estate speculation :roll:

Do not leave out Black Mountain Of Maine, they got that big grant from the Libra Foundation, and went from an obscure place with 440' vertical to 1,100'

It's a decent place to ski with dirt cheap prices.

Yes, but I distinguish this example because the whole point was to make Black Mountain affordable, sustainable, and accessible to the locals because other places are getting too expensive. Remember the point was to keep it open for locals :wink: A very worthy cause and I applaud them.

Burke Mountain also is really thinking about its merger/acquisition, as hinted in the Challenge, they are really working to keep the place accessible and sustainable for locals and not another bad case of real estate speculation.

 

[loafer89]

I hear you, it's just worth mentioning because of how large of an expansion that it was. They are also affiliated with Mars Hill, and a few other small places in Maine the specialize in low cost skiing.

Saddleback was rescued by a man with the love of the mountain, I really doubt that large scale condo developments and making money hand over fist were/are part of his plans.

 

[Geoff]

I'd say real estate is absolutely driving things- ASC doesn't make any money on the skiing side- it's all from lodging and real estate. As a division, I don't think the ski operations part has ever turned a profit (not sure ASC as a whole has, either :0 ).

Actually, ASC hasn't ever been able to make any money developing and selling real estate, either. They financed with very high interest rate notes. A lot of their quartershare Grand Summit properties ended up getting dumped at auction. Certainly, there were Attitash and Canyons auctions. Last I knew, the Steamboat property that was built 5 years ago still isn't 100% sold.

The ski areas actually operate at a profit but the company has so much high interest debt that they continue to lose huge bundles of cash every year.

 

[riverc0il]

It may just be me, but there seems to be a lot of activity in ski area development/ownership right now. I’ve seen posts concerning interest in Hogback, the area next to Magic (Timber Ridge?) Haystack has been bought Burke is changing hands, Saddleback, Camelback. For an industry that claims to have had zero growth things certainly seem to be changing. Could this mean a resurgent in the sport or just a reason to build more condos? Is the secondary home/real estate market driving this interest? If it is is that a bad thing?

timberside next to magic was only rumored to be on the chopping block and more likely for real estate development rather than a ski area. why would any one in their right mind purchase a ski area next to an already struggling one in the midst of a valley that already has three large and well developed mountains. my suspicion is timberside will remain lost unless a big player comes in and buys both magic and timberside. bromley already tried it's luck with magic and neglected it. i won't go into the rumors that i have heard as i have yet to see anything more than conjucture.

whaleback has an interested buyer but i don't believe the transaction is 100% complete yet. burke would only change hands, not be new or renewed as it is currently open. same with saddleback, ownership change only. though with new ownership comes improvements almost always, but that's not bringing a ski area back from the dead.

crotched mountain seems to me to be the best example of a successful come back area. they have a decent location and a great demographic to target and serve. i expect crotched reborn to do really well.

tenney went down but came back after a year. as previously mentioned by tree_skier, haystack was more of a real estate deal with ASC dumping land for cash. ASC could have turned haystack into something great, but alas it is not meant to be.

more and more we are seeing lost areas sold to real estate development never to return again. those that do return tend to be those mountains that have a solid vertical and/or location, but keep having up and down cycles. this says to me that the industry is still very turbulent and the industry is still flat lining. long term trends are the only way to identify real industry growth, so you must look at any resurfacing areas 5 years down the road and see if they are still in operation or sold off for real estate :roll: