steamboat1
Well-known member
Yep that's the story I heard. Thanks for finding it.
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Sugarbush expansion?
- Thread starter Boston Bulldog
- Start date
The last few years Sugarbush's snowmaking has become a perennial topic. I think it is fair to say that they have maintained what they have. They did replace the lines that supply both base areas and that cost some money. They've also added some HKD guns here and there. They replaced the booster pump on Deathspout. But overall just maintaining it and keeping what you've got is not really progress. I agree that I'm a bit disappointed that they have not added compressor power or pumping power. Heck, Stowe now has fully automated lines on some trails. Sugarbush had something like that, made by York, in what? 1994? And that's long gone.
I know that they've claimed to have pumped more water, blown more snow, etc. But their response time is really slow. I know that they hope that they don't need snowmaking, but having a better system means quicker openings, faster transitions, and better product. They've had some seasons where they were covered, but other times when they weren't.
I think it is a fair point to argue, especially when little Burke is adding a new compressor this year and SB is not doing anything that I know of. Hopefully it will change...once they get some more revenue from their other projects.
Last edited:
skivideoguy
Active member
I think Win has done a great job so far executing on his plans for Sugarbush. I like the new lodge and base area. Rice Brook looks like it's finally moving forward and I think that's a good thing too. However, plans aren't written in tablets of stone and need to be dynamic to be adjusted by what's happening in the competitive marketplace.
Jay Peak has awaken and is aiming to own the Canadian marketplace with Jay/Burke. I'm from PA. Many people from PA stop at Killington. That's as far north as they feel they need to go. Jay is giving Canadians reasons to think Jay/Burke is as far as they need to drive south. Killington seems to be coming out of hibernation with new management as well. Stowe worked ALOT on their snowmaking this year and will be delivering better snow shortly.
Sugarbush's plans must take these marketplace changes into account. 20 something passes are great and will pay off when they are 30 and 40 somethings with families coming back to the Mad River Valley....unless we have a string of marginal snow years with thaw's etc that show SB's unprotected underbelly.
I would like to see some investment in snowmaking capacity building and delivery systems. More water up the hill, better guns in marginal conditions, more guns to blow it out. Another way to compete is to strike at the heart of the competition. Develop more tree skiing...I like the looks of the area between Castlerocks' Middle Earth and Birch as a possible area to enhance with some nice tight glades. MRG is already known for trees, make the whole Mad River Valley a tree skier destination by more tightly integrating the 2 areas. I know about the enormous differences in size, mgmt etc with SB and MRG and that will be a long/slow process.
Looking at the PDF mentioned above and those pages of lines possible both at the Lincoln Peak and Mt. Ellen areas, I'm not sure about the direction of enhancements over at Mt. Ellen? Do you try and more tightly integrate LP and ME or do you reach north from ME toward MRG for a potential eventual interconnect. In a perfect world you go nuts and enhance the snowmaking enough to cover all the proposed new terrain plus 30%, cut the trails add the lifts and connect to MRG. IF there will be an eventual linkage with MRG, what about base lodging development over at ME?
Of course, that's a tremendous amount of money and it won't happen in one big swoop. I'm confident Win's the guy to decide how to get from A - B while reacting to the economy and marketplace. Looking forward to 2013/14 and the Rice Book phase 1 completion and would also love to see another 200 HKD guns and more water up the hill.
Jay Peak has awaken and is aiming to own the Canadian marketplace with Jay/Burke. I'm from PA. Many people from PA stop at Killington. That's as far north as they feel they need to go. Jay is giving Canadians reasons to think Jay/Burke is as far as they need to drive south. Killington seems to be coming out of hibernation with new management as well. Stowe worked ALOT on their snowmaking this year and will be delivering better snow shortly.
Sugarbush's plans must take these marketplace changes into account. 20 something passes are great and will pay off when they are 30 and 40 somethings with families coming back to the Mad River Valley....unless we have a string of marginal snow years with thaw's etc that show SB's unprotected underbelly.
I would like to see some investment in snowmaking capacity building and delivery systems. More water up the hill, better guns in marginal conditions, more guns to blow it out. Another way to compete is to strike at the heart of the competition. Develop more tree skiing...I like the looks of the area between Castlerocks' Middle Earth and Birch as a possible area to enhance with some nice tight glades. MRG is already known for trees, make the whole Mad River Valley a tree skier destination by more tightly integrating the 2 areas. I know about the enormous differences in size, mgmt etc with SB and MRG and that will be a long/slow process.
Looking at the PDF mentioned above and those pages of lines possible both at the Lincoln Peak and Mt. Ellen areas, I'm not sure about the direction of enhancements over at Mt. Ellen? Do you try and more tightly integrate LP and ME or do you reach north from ME toward MRG for a potential eventual interconnect. In a perfect world you go nuts and enhance the snowmaking enough to cover all the proposed new terrain plus 30%, cut the trails add the lifts and connect to MRG. IF there will be an eventual linkage with MRG, what about base lodging development over at ME?
Of course, that's a tremendous amount of money and it won't happen in one big swoop. I'm confident Win's the guy to decide how to get from A - B while reacting to the economy and marketplace. Looking forward to 2013/14 and the Rice Book phase 1 completion and would also love to see another 200 HKD guns and more water up the hill.
skivideoguy
Active member
One more thing. The Valley House. I've been coming up for 15 years. Haven't spent any time at the Valley House. IF SB gets more snowmaking and any trail expansion and if that pays off in more skier visits, then breakfast/lunch and beers capacity needs to grow too. Valley Double chair (and that nasty area at the top) need to change as well. Maybe keep the chair and move it in between Castlerock and North Lynx or over at Mount Ellen above Inverness but I digress.
What's everyone's feeling about what should happen if they doze the Valley House?
What's everyone's feeling about what should happen if they doze the Valley House?
skivideoguy
Active member
Still another point (sorry, alot of coffee this morning)....
Sugarbush's Terrain Park stuff is over at Mount Ellen. I know there are a few things over on Slowpoke but it doesn't even count. I'm 50, I don't do much Park/Pipe but it's something to consider in today's ski/ride marketplace. With a tighter alignment with MRG does Park/Pipe even matter in SB's plans? If not, I'm fine with that, keep what they have. If it does matter, do you develop some park and pipe space at Lincoln Peak? If so, where? Do you take the bottom of Spring Fling and make a Superpipe with more terrain stuff on one side of Snowball? Do you carve out a giant park space....like that giant blue blob in the expansion plans to the right of the Village?
What's everyone's feelings about Park & Pipe at LP? at ME? On existing trails? On new space?
How about a tubing park and some limited night skiing? Thoughts?
Sugarbush's Terrain Park stuff is over at Mount Ellen. I know there are a few things over on Slowpoke but it doesn't even count. I'm 50, I don't do much Park/Pipe but it's something to consider in today's ski/ride marketplace. With a tighter alignment with MRG does Park/Pipe even matter in SB's plans? If not, I'm fine with that, keep what they have. If it does matter, do you develop some park and pipe space at Lincoln Peak? If so, where? Do you take the bottom of Spring Fling and make a Superpipe with more terrain stuff on one side of Snowball? Do you carve out a giant park space....like that giant blue blob in the expansion plans to the right of the Village?
What's everyone's feelings about Park & Pipe at LP? at ME? On existing trails? On new space?
How about a tubing park and some limited night skiing? Thoughts?
Smellytele
Well-known member
I kind of like the Valley house. At least they don't stick you in the basement like at the gate house bar.
WWF-VT
Well-known member
You can ski the majority of that terrain today using existing lifts and a combination of on the map and off the map woods.
gostan
Well-known member
In any business, there is always a fine line between budgeting dollars for maintaining the existing assets and for expanding new assets/revenues. Both avenues are critical to long term success.
I believe that Win has an open ear to listen to our thoughts, but, ultimately, we all need to understand that Sugarbush and the Win Smith led Summit Ventures is not ever going to be like Sun Valley/sbnowbasin and the Earl Holding led Little America. We all have our opinions, but we only ski the mountain. We are akin to non-voting shareholders.
I think that Win/Summit Ventures is doing a pretty good juggling act here. Sure, there are errors being made along the path (such as cutting the size of the new Gatehouse Lodge), but completing the Gatehouse, Schoolhouse and Farmhouse lodges over the last 5 years is quite an investment that has made the family and visitor ski experience at Sugarbush more enjoyable.
It is, however, questionable to me, that there is a major investment being made promoting SB and MR for 20's+ skiers, with the hope/expectation that they will become long term MRV skiers and riders and visitors. This appears to be a role of the dice, without further snowmaking upgrades/investments, if there is not sufficient early season natural snowfall. I say this because I imagine that these 20's+ skiers are not going to be happy campers if there friends as Killington are skiing double/triple the open terrain of SB in December on man made snow, while SB is struggling/doing its' best to get slopes covered with its existing snowmaking system.
Let's hope for a bountiful natural snow year for all of NE!
I believe that Win has an open ear to listen to our thoughts, but, ultimately, we all need to understand that Sugarbush and the Win Smith led Summit Ventures is not ever going to be like Sun Valley/sbnowbasin and the Earl Holding led Little America. We all have our opinions, but we only ski the mountain. We are akin to non-voting shareholders.
I think that Win/Summit Ventures is doing a pretty good juggling act here. Sure, there are errors being made along the path (such as cutting the size of the new Gatehouse Lodge), but completing the Gatehouse, Schoolhouse and Farmhouse lodges over the last 5 years is quite an investment that has made the family and visitor ski experience at Sugarbush more enjoyable.
It is, however, questionable to me, that there is a major investment being made promoting SB and MR for 20's+ skiers, with the hope/expectation that they will become long term MRV skiers and riders and visitors. This appears to be a role of the dice, without further snowmaking upgrades/investments, if there is not sufficient early season natural snowfall. I say this because I imagine that these 20's+ skiers are not going to be happy campers if there friends as Killington are skiing double/triple the open terrain of SB in December on man made snow, while SB is struggling/doing its' best to get slopes covered with its existing snowmaking system.
Let's hope for a bountiful natural snow year for all of NE!
The area between castlerock and north lynx has plenty of tree skiing it just isnt on the map. Its south facing so opening it up probably wouldnt be a good idea. same thing with lower FIS area
Agreed that the snowmaking capacity should be enhanced. But the deficit they have is in early season marginal temperature capacity, so i think fan guns are the answer not more compressors and hkd guns. fwiw-they took a hit having to rebuild the snowmaking pond last year after irene so that can explain why they didnt do anything going into this season.
The valley house lodge and lift must be replaced. I think they are just biding they're time with this and taking a go slow approach. I think once they have the new village finished and the base is seemlessly integrated with SB Village, they'll use the proceeds to finance a new vh lodge and lift. They have consistently eschewed taking on large amounts of debt to finance big projects in one fell swoop. we have seen repeatedly in the past how that has not ended well for ski area owners. Jay peak is rocking right now with a lot of shiny new toys and good for them. But they have taken on significant debt and we'll see how it works out over the medium to long term. fixed grip triple will suffice as long as there is a new terminus as the current set up is dangerous.
I like the terrain park over at mt ellen. first of all, its the cheaper venue and its less crowded so keeping the boarders over there gives them more of home away from the families with little kids who rightly or wrongly want to avoid boarders.
Agreed that the snowmaking capacity should be enhanced. But the deficit they have is in early season marginal temperature capacity, so i think fan guns are the answer not more compressors and hkd guns. fwiw-they took a hit having to rebuild the snowmaking pond last year after irene so that can explain why they didnt do anything going into this season.
The valley house lodge and lift must be replaced. I think they are just biding they're time with this and taking a go slow approach. I think once they have the new village finished and the base is seemlessly integrated with SB Village, they'll use the proceeds to finance a new vh lodge and lift. They have consistently eschewed taking on large amounts of debt to finance big projects in one fell swoop. we have seen repeatedly in the past how that has not ended well for ski area owners. Jay peak is rocking right now with a lot of shiny new toys and good for them. But they have taken on significant debt and we'll see how it works out over the medium to long term. fixed grip triple will suffice as long as there is a new terminus as the current set up is dangerous.
I like the terrain park over at mt ellen. first of all, its the cheaper venue and its less crowded so keeping the boarders over there gives them more of home away from the families with little kids who rightly or wrongly want to avoid boarders.
gostan
Well-known member
Howie, what are you talking about? There is no tree skiing in this area.:razz:
right. i stand corrected.
Re: Pond
Last season when they had to reconstruct the pond after Irene, did they finally dredge it to the permitted depth, which ASC never did?
Last season when they had to reconstruct the pond after Irene, did they finally dredge it to the permitted depth, which ASC never did?
see discussion here- http://forums.skimrv.com/showthread.php/10255-Snowmaking-Pond-amp-Irene?highlight=snowmaking+pond
basically-ASC did not dig to permitted depth, but SV had it done years ago and cleaned out the accumulated silt last year.
from_the_NEK
Well-known member
Looking at Google Earth and the snowmaking pond situation, it kind of struck me how much parking capacity Sugarbush has. Do they ever fill up those lots?
At South, yes. North generally not.
steamboat1
Well-known member
South often fills up on weekends. I kind of remember seeing additional parking built at south when I was there this summer but I'm not positive.
They usually run the connector chair on weekends so you could ski south even if you're parked at north. Regardless of whether the connector chair is running or not they offer regular free shuttle service between the two areas.
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