VAIL SUCKS

[deadheadskier]

So you're saying I'm owed a big refund on these illegal Vail tariffs?

Excellent

 

[BenedictGomez]

Shareholder value, to go along with an experience of a lifetime

View attachment 68783

Vail's stock performance is much worse when considered in the context of how blind monkey's throwing darts did in the same timeframe.

 

[BenedictGomez]

The stupidest part is they were paying it all along and just never knew it. Vail should have left it included and dealt with increasing pass prices more than they pretended they did.

It's yet another example of Vail ending up with egg on its face due to thinking they're 1000x smarter than every other company.

 

[thetrailboss]

Do not doubt our resolve to never pay sales tax here in New Hampshire!

The governor is on it!

Must be an election year!

 

[thetrailboss]

Do not doubt our resolve to never pay sales tax here in New Hampshire!

The governor is on it!

You know guys, it's too bad that Robby is hearing this news today. Yesterday when I bumped into him at Alta he was pretty giddy.

"Robby, what the hell are you doing skiing at Alta?"
"Well, it's a powder day and Park City is closed. Daddy has to ski!"
"But didn't this cost you $209 and a $25 parking reservation to ski today?"
"Cost me? Hell no! This is coming out of that 3% Katz Tax that even New Hampshirites are paying me!"

 

[jimmywilson69]

Exactly Vail tried tried to squeeze an extra 3.2% out kf us and now its a big deal...

 

[chuckstah]

you realize this is going nowhere right?

its not like the pass is only or can only be used in NH. This was discussed ad nauseum several pages back.

Maybe a case for the Epic day pass? I would imagine less than one percent of NH purchasers use the limited product out of state. Tax in NH is some kind of BS.

 

[kbroderick]

Maybe a case for the Epic day pass? I would imagine less than one percent of NH purchasers use the limited product out of state. Tax in NH is some kind of BS.

I'm very curious as to the legal framework on the tax collection. I very definitely am not an expert on taxes in multi-jurisdictional products, but both the amount collected and notification to the consumer of the collection were important to the Vermont Department of Taxes when I was doing point-of-sale configuration there. I'd expect a corp as big as Vail to have a legal plan (and I'd have to think that there are industries bigger than skiing with similar challenges).

But more to the point: if collecting out-of-state sales and use tax line item for a product used in New Hampshire is illegal (which, if it is, what about Internet or mail order purchases from single-jurisdiction entities that tax all purchases per local law?), does that also make the prior, rolled-in tax collection illegal?

 

[deadheadskier]

So was all of the tax collected only submitted to the state of Colorado?

 

[cdskier]

So was all of the tax collected only submitted to the state of Colorado?

No...there was an article posted previously on this topic (not sure if it was this thread or another thread) where Vail outlined how they were allocating the taxes. They allocate the taxes based on the overall pass usage at each resort in jurisdictions where tax is required to be collected. Again, Vail was always paying this. They just were never calling it out as a separate charge on the purchase.

I think the article was from a newspaper in Utah where people expressed concerns when Vail purchased Park City that Utah would be shafted on taxes. They clarified that wasn't the case as they were still obligated to pay taxes even on a multi-resort pass with corporate HQ in another state (CO).

 

[cdskier]

Question for NH residents...does Ticketmaster charge you sales tax if you purchase a ticket for a concert that takes place in MA for example? Vail should be able to quite easily argue this is the same concept unless you exclusively use your pass at NH resorts. You're not paying for a physical pass...you're paying for a service/event (access to resorts in a variety of states).

 

[chuckstah]

Question for NH residents...does Ticketmaster charge you sales tax if you purchase a ticket for a concert that takes place in MA for example? Vail should be able to quite easily argue this is the same concept unless you exclusively use your pass at NH resorts. You're not paying for a physical pass...you're paying for a service/event (access to resorts in a variety of states).

No, I've never paid taxes for anything purchased in NH, online or in person. I recently purchased tickets for a show in Boston, $54 before taxes was the listed price. Final price, $54.

 

[thebigo]

Question for NH residents...does Ticketmaster charge you sales tax if you purchase a ticket for a concert that takes place in MA for example? Vail should be able to quite easily argue this is the same concept unless you exclusively use your pass at NH resorts. You're not paying for a physical pass...you're paying for a service/event (access to resorts in a variety of states).

Not sure about ticketmaster but we pay tax when buying sox tickets. I did not pay tax when purchasing New England passes in March. The transaction shows 'LOON ASPENWARE ECOMM' as the vendor. Maybe that is the difference, boyne directs you to the loon website for purchase.

Edit: nevermind, I was wrong the red sox add 'fees' not taxes

 

[chuckstah]

Not sure about ticketmaster but we definitely pay tax when buying sox tickets. I did not pay tax when purchasing New England passes in March. The transaction shows 'LOON ASPENWARE ECOMM' as the vendor. Maybe that is the difference, boyne directs you to the loon website for purchase.

I definitely paid taxes on my Peak pass once, before Vail, when I had a brain cramp and renewed at the Mount Snow ticket window. I always renewed online or in NH after that mistake. I may have paid tax on Sox tickets, but I haven't been in years. All I remember is lots of fees, like 50 percent of the price. Taxes could have been part of that.

 

[cdskier]

Ahh...That may have been a bad example. Apparently tickets to sporting and amusement events are exempt from sales tax in MA:



NJ taxes concert tickets, but I don't know that there are many people buying tickets to NJ shows that live in NH. VT also charges tax on that, but again, probably not a lot of venues you'd buy tickets for through ticketmaster in VT.

Damn these laws are ridiculous. Just found a list of what states charge sales tax on admissions. Super complicated. Some charge on concerts, but not sports. Some charge on sports, but not concerts. Some charge tax for other types of events. Some charge on all event admissions. Some charge on none...

Living in NJ, I just sort of assumed most states charged tax on admissions. Guess not!

 

[deadheadskier]

No...there was an article posted previously on this topic (not sure if it was this thread or another thread) where Vail outlined how they were allocating the taxes. They allocate the taxes based on the overall pass usage at each resort in jurisdictions where tax is required to be collected. Again, Vail was always paying this. They just were never calling it out as a separate charge on the purchase.

I think the article was from a newspaper in Utah where people expressed concerns when Vail purchased Park City that Utah would be shafted on taxes. They clarified that wasn't the case as they were still obligated to pay taxes even on a multi-resort pass with corporate HQ in another state (CO).

Seems like cocktail napkin math that most states should have an issue with then. I would think you'd almost have to revert to location of purchase being the location that gets the tax revenue if that state collects sales tax. Otherwise it's just an estimate and I don't think most tax departments want "estimated payments."

I wonder how Indy Pass manages this. My usage with that pass this year was:

VT: 2 days
NH: 9 days
Canada: 3 days

Pass cost $399. There is no tax on the receipt nor a message stating tax is included, so I assume I wasn't charged tax. Should VT get tax based off 2/14ths the purchase price and Canada get 3/14ths?

You'd basically have to wait until the end of the season to figure out accurate tax amounts and where to send that revenue. And if you have to wait until the end to figure out where to send the money, how do you accurately charge for it at the point of purchase?

 

[cdskier]

Seems like cocktail napkin math that most states should have an issue with then. I would think you'd almost have to revert to location of purchase being the location that gets the tax revenue if that state collects sales tax. Otherwise it's just an estimate and I don't think most tax departments want "estimated payments."

How is it an estimate if they're basing it on actual usage? Basing it on location of purchase is exactly the wrong way to do it as that has no bearing on where the pass is used which is the key to the way sales tax works for this type of scenario. States (like Utah years ago) were arguing for it to specifically be done this way (based on usage) to ensure they got the correct amount they were owed.

You'd basically have to wait until the end of the season to figure out accurate tax amounts and where to send that revenue. And if you have to wait until the end to figure out where to send the money, how do you accurately charge for it at the point of purchase?

This is why the "tax included" model is far easier. Vail's "blended rate" model is presumably based on analysis of years of data. Charging based purely on location of purchase is risky as Vail could end up significantly under (or over) collecting tax depending on what states the sales come from vs where passes are used. Neither is ideal. Vail's plan is weird and I think will cause more issues than it was worth.

 

[deadheadskier]

It absolutely is an estimate because years of data is kind of irrelevant in a weather dependent industry. Look how off the numbers were out West this year as an example. Or for an extreme outlier , look at the COVID year.

I think no matter how you slice it, there's some degree of estimation / cocktail napkin math involved. The states and the consumers are all but certain to be over or under charged.

I had an Epic pass for two years. Covid year I skied about 30 days in NH and 4 in Vermont. The following year I skied about 30 days in NH exclusively. My guess is I was charged the same amount in tax as all other Epic pass buyers. I highly doubt Vails software is smart of to say okay VT, deadheadskier skied 4 days in your state this year, so you get this much in tax revenue from him. This year he didn't ski in your state at all, so you get nothing. In that case, I'm getting over charged on tax and Vail is pocketing the surplus.

 

[machski]

Seems like cocktail napkin math that most states should have an issue with then. I would think you'd almost have to revert to location of purchase being the location that gets the tax revenue if that state collects sales tax. Otherwise it's just an estimate and I don't think most tax departments want "estimated payments."

I wonder how Indy Pass manages this. My usage with that pass this year was:

VT: 2 days
NH: 9 days
Canada: 3 days

Pass cost $399. There is no tax on the receipt nor a message stating tax is included, so I assume I wasn't charged tax. Should VT get tax based off 2/14ths the purchase price and Canada get 3/14ths?

You'd basically have to wait until the end of the season to figure out accurate tax amounts and where to send that revenue. And if you have to wait until the end to figure out where to send the money, how do you accurately charge for it at the point of purchase?

Well, since Indy doesn't own any resorts (outside of NH anyway ), are they on the hook or the individual resorts? I would think the individual resorts are and where as Indy pays them a flat payout per redemption, it probably has to come out of that from the resorts affected by sales tax. Vail is a little different where the vast majority of resorts on the Epic are owned by the pass owner too. I doubt they break out their Epic pass revenue like Indy pays out to its individual areas.

 

[deadheadskier]

Good point. Vail does have some allied resorts though. They don't own most of their Canadian properties. I wonder how that works out in the various provinces.

They probably gave Mt Saint Anne the shaft. Hence their lift problems.

If Kelly wants my vote, she better get to the bottom of this and get a sweet Epic refund check in the mail to me.